IETF
dane@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, August 1, 2013< ^ >
stpeter has set the subject to: DANE WG | http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dane/
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[15:01:58] <Dan York> I will jabber-scribe, but is there someone here who can be a backup if I go to the mic?
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[15:03:25] <Dan York> Welcome to DANE
[15:03:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DANE WG
[15:03:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Welcome to DANE
[15:03:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Chairs
[15:03:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Welcome to DANE
[15:03:43] semery joins the room
[15:03:44] <Dan York> I'll be jabber-scribing. I know we have at least 1 remote employee
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[15:03:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Note Well
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[15:04:03] <Dan York> Slides
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[15:04:08] <Dan York> Slides: http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/slides/slides-87-dane-3.pdf
[15:04:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Blue Sheets
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[15:04:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Agenda
[15:04:53] <Dan York> (joke for remote attendees is that we're in a huge room and don't fill it up)
[15:04:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
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[15:05:16] <Dan York> Slides: http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/slides/slides-87-dane-2.pdf
[15:05:22] <Dan York> Draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dukhovni-smtp-opportunistic-tls-01
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[15:05:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DANE Best Current Practice
[15:05:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Wes Hardaker
[15:05:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DANE Best Current Practice
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[15:06:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DANE for SMTP
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[15:06:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Wes Hardaker
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[15:06:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DANE for SMTP
[15:06:24] <Dan York> IF YOU ARE A REMOTE PARTICIPANT and want a comment relayed to the mic, please preface your comment with "mic:"
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[15:06:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Addresses in SMTP
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[15:07:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: 7 3
[15:08:11] <Dan York> I have to step out for a moment - is there someone who could jabber-scribe for a couple of minutes until I return?  Lorenzo is putting the slide numbers in, so all you really need to do is enter names of those at the mic if anyone asks questions.
[15:08:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> For remote attendees, just FYI a Meetecho room is available here http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/dane (integrated slides, jabber room and audio/video)
[15:08:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> I can do that for you Dan
[15:08:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: 7 4
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[15:08:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Problem #1: Fake MX Records
[15:08:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: 7 5
[15:09:00] <Dan York> thanks, Lorenzo - back in 5-ish minutes
[15:09:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: 7
[15:09:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> Solution #2: TLS-Protected SMTP
[15:09:29] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: 7 8
[15:09:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Problem #3: SMTP Man-in-the-Middle
[15:10:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: 7 9
[15:10:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Solution #3: SMTP over TLS with DANE
[15:10:52] <jelte> meetecho has its kinks though :p (my flash crashed a minute ago, and now it's lost connection to the server)
[15:10:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: TLS and SMTP Summary
[15:11:11] <Lorenzo Miniero> ops :)
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[15:11:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> you can try one of the media alternatives if flash keeps on being picky
[15:11:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: DANE and SMTP
[15:12:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 12: DANE and SMTP
[15:13:06] <mrex-ietf> The use of DANE types ought to be configurable
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[15:13:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 13: SMTP Referral Choices
[15:14:48] <mrex-ietf> DANE-using software ought to be configurable for "type 0 +1 only", if one does not want to trust DNSSEC alone, but only the combination of traditional public CAs + DNSSEC
[15:15:44] <semery> mrex: Do  you want this mic'ed after the talk?
[15:15:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 14: SMTP hosting example
[15:16:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 15: TLSA records and MX records
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[15:18:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 16: DANE SMTP Model Summary
[15:18:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 20: SMTP Hosting With CNAMEs
[15:18:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 14: SMTP hosting example
[15:18:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 16: DANE SMTP Model Summary
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[15:19:08] <mrex-ietf> (i.e I would be OK if Google Chrome would implement DANE and by default limit it to usage types 0/1 so that it does not interfere with CT)
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[15:19:36] <Dan York> Lorenzo Miniero: I'm back.  Thanks for the cover
[15:19:52] <Dan York> mrex-ietf: Do you want these comments relayed or are they a side conversation for the chat?
[15:20:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> np :)
[15:21:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 17: What To Do With This Work?
[15:21:59] <Dan York> Question - what to do with this work?  Merge content with draft-ietf-dane-smtp?  Publish different components separately?
[15:22:02] Karen O'Donoghue joins the room
[15:23:51] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: RFC 5321 allows domain-part of email address to be a CNAME
[15:23:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 20: SMTP Hosting With CNAMEs
[15:24:03] <viktor_dukhovni> Email addresses don't have to be zone cuts
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[15:24:31] <SM> I already commented about that to Tony
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[15:25:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[15:25:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DANE Best Current Practice
[15:25:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Wes Hardaker
[15:25:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DANE Best Current Practice
[15:25:37] <Dan York> viktor_dukhovni: relayed - and agreed here in the room
[15:25:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: General DANE Guidelines (Type Independen
[15:25:56] <Dan York> Slides: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dukhovni-dane-ops-01
[15:26:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Large DNS payload issues
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[15:26:21] <Dan York> Ah, that was the draft
[15:26:21] <Dan York> Slides are here: http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/slides/slides-87-dane-1.pdf
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[15:27:24] <Dan York> On slide 3 - conclusion is that hashes are best
[15:27:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Selector Matching Guidelines
[15:28:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Referral and CNAME Processing and TLSA B
[15:28:57] <Dan York> Slide 4 - conclusion is that best current selector is SHA256
[15:31:46] <Dan York> Slide 5 - summary is... most cases give you a FAIL
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[15:33:25] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: WIth MX or SRV fallback is starting domain of MX/SRV
[15:33:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: CNAMEs
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[15:33:49] <viktor_dukhovni> Without MX or SRV fallback is starting domain.
[15:34:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: CNAMEs
[15:35:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Type-Specific Guidelines
[15:35:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: Type 3 Guidelines
[15:36:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: Type 3 Guidelines
[15:37:05] <mrex-ietf> The "algorithm" described for "type 3 checks" is substituting the "Server Endpoint Identification", which for HTTP-over-TLS is described in rfc2818 section 3.1
[15:38:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: Type 2 Guidelines
[15:38:12] <mrex-ietf> (plus skipping the PKIX certificate path validation)
[15:39:16] <Dan York> viktor_dukhovni: I apologize, I missed the relay... is it still relevant or has the moment gone by?
[15:39:27] <Dan York> (and I'll watch closer now)
[15:39:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 12: Type 0/1 Guidelines
[15:40:10] <mrex-ietf> with "publish" (for type 2) you mean "include in the (server's) Certificate handshake message)
[15:40:24] <sftcd> am I right that the type 3 guideline requires changes to TLS code? if so, hard to see how "current APIs" guideline for type 2 is a compelling argument
[15:40:41] <Dan York> sftcd: need that relayed?
[15:40:47] <sftcd> nah I'm here
[15:40:51] <sftcd> asking victor really
[15:40:54] <Dan York> :-)
[15:41:11] <viktor_dukhovni> I expect XMPP to be largely the same, also IMAP with SRV.
[15:41:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 13: Interaction with Certificate Transparenc
[15:41:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 14: Certificate Transparency Interaction
[15:42:47] <viktor_dukhovni> Relaying of comment on XMPP optional.
[15:43:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 15: Certificate Transparency Interaction
[15:44:00] <sftcd> isn't it quite early to propose BCP text for CT? (which is experimental)
[15:44:25] <Dan York> viktor_dukhovni: I can relay that...
[15:45:07] <Dan York> Russ Housely at mic
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[15:45:12] <mrex-ietf> dane types 0/1 should not interfere with CT, but allow the domain owner to disapprove of certs that public CAs issued for their domain
[15:45:26] <Dan York> Russ - we need to get CT and DANE folks in a room and sort this out
[15:45:39] <Dan York> Russ - Ben Laurie updated CT draft right before cut-off
[15:45:57] <Dan York> Paul Hoffman at mic
[15:46:20] <Dan York> Paul - CT is experimental
[15:46:53] <mrex-ietf> why "don't do both"??
[15:46:56] <Dan York> Paul - "don't do both"
[15:47:10] <mrex-ietf> dane types 0/1 (alone!) will not break CT
[15:47:15] <Dan York> mrex-ietf: what is your name?  (I'll relay that)
[15:47:44] <Dan York> Stephen Farrell at mic
[15:47:59] <Dan York> Stephen - isn't it a bit early for BCP advice about CT?
[15:48:18] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: We just wanted to make sure that DANE Is not shot-down by the CT spec.
[15:48:56] <mrex-ietf> If *I* could choose for Google Chrome to support CT alone or CT plus DANE limited to type 0/1, I would prefer the latter
[15:49:05] <Dan York> Eric Osterweil at mic
[15:50:08] <mrex-ietf> And on top, since Google Chrome is a Browser, DANE types 2/3 might result in a "less scary" page
[15:50:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 16: Certificate Transparency Interaction
[15:51:21] <mrex-ietf> misunderstanding about dane type 1 -- PKIX validation still applies, and so does CT
[15:51:44] <Dan York> mrex-ietf: I'll relay
[15:52:21] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: Successful attacks on DNS allow attacker to publish type 3 which CT CANNOT cover.
[15:52:47] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: Therefore CT adds no security when DNSSEC compromised.
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[15:53:58] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: There is no room for rogue CA to publish bogus cert with type 1.
[15:54:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 17: What To Do With This Work?
[15:55:47] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: the importance of including TA in server chain felt missing from 6698
[15:55:52] <mrex-ietf> don't look at CT to be a mitigation for a specific attack.  CT checking of DANE type 1 certs provides value
[15:56:45] <sftcd> +1 this is good work
[15:56:49] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: I am open to CT with 0/1, provided it does not cover 2/3.
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[15:58:48] <Dan York> That's been me and Peter Koch going back and forth at the mic
[15:59:16] <Dan York> Paul Hoffman at mic
[15:59:28] <Dan York> Paul - +1 to what Peter said
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[16:01:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[16:01:43] <Dan York> Olafur up
[16:01:53] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: More coauthors welcome! Touch base with myself and Wes.
[16:01:53] <Dan York> DANE Vocabulary - Slides: http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/slides/slides-87-dane-0.pdf
[16:01:57] <sftcd> nah olafur looks calm
[16:02:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DANE    
 Vocabulary    
 
[16:02:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Olaf Gudmundsson
[16:02:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DANE    
 Vocabulary    
 
[16:02:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Olafur Gudmundsson
[16:03:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DANE    
 Vocabulary    
 
[16:03:04] <Dan York> viktor_dukhovni: I didn't have a chance to relay that as we were in the switch between presenters
[16:03:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Goals    
 
[16:03:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Service    
 definiMon    
 names    
 
[16:03:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: DNS    
     
 
[16:04:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: DNS    
 ComplicaMons    
 
[16:04:43] <Dan York> viktor_dukhovni: I think, though, that Wes made that clear.
[16:05:06] <Dan York> Olafur's draft at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ogud-dane-vocabulary-00
[16:05:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: What    
 needs    
 DNS    
 Integrity?
[16:05:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Example:    
 TLS    
 
[16:06:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Example:    
 SSH    
 
[16:06:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: Example:    
 SMTP    
 
[16:06:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: Example:    
 IMAP    
 
[16:06:47] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: What’s    
 next?    
 
[16:07:04] =JeffH leaves the room
[16:07:05] <Dan York> Paul Hoffman at mic
[16:07:11] =JeffH joins the room
[16:07:28] <Dan York> Wes Hardaker at mic
[16:07:50] <mrex-ietf> This sounds like doing for DANE what rfc6125 is doing for PKIX
[16:07:53] <Dan York> (Paul and Wes have both commented that it's not clear where to do this)
[16:07:54] Chris joins the room
[16:08:32] <Dan York> Stephen Farrell at mic - no intention of a SAAG group ... AD-sponsored might be an option
[16:08:36] <Dan York> Peter Koch at mic
[16:08:39] <Dan York> mrex-ietf: I'll relay
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[16:09:42] <Dan York> Eric Osterweil at mic
[16:10:45] <mrex-ietf> by collecting this information we might be able to convince the IESG (ADs) that protocols should have an idea about identifying & authenticating communication peers from the beginning.  SMTP has the problem that authenticating entities was never really addressed
[16:10:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[16:11:31] <Dan York> Paul Wouters speaking
[16:11:44] <Dan York> about his drafts for OTR and PGP
[16:12:37] <Dan York> Paul Hoffman
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[16:13:42] <mrex-ietf> this is how SMTP-AUTH earned itself the reference in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6919#section-5
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[16:15:24] <Dan York> me at mic
[16:15:29] <Dan York> Wes Hardaker at mic
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[16:15:49] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: Toolkit (OpenSSL, ...) maturity is a major barrier.  The Postfix code for DANE is highly non-trivial.  Various other implementations are at this stage often flawed.
[16:16:06] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: Challenge for group is to drive implementation of robust libraries.
[16:16:20] <Dan York> ack
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[16:17:40] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: Client libraries to verify peer's chain against DANE TLSA are what I had in mind.
[16:18:16] <Dan York> Warren eats dogfood:  http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/slides/slides-87-dane-4.pdf
[16:18:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Dogfood!
[16:18:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: “Proposal”
[16:19:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: “Proposal”
[16:19:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: “Proposal”
[16:20:08] <Dan York> Paul Wouters at mic
[16:20:12] <Dan York> Wes Hardaker at mic
[16:20:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: “Proposal”
[16:21:09] <Dan York> Peter Koch at mic
[16:21:42] <sftcd> our dog eats our cat's food:-)
[16:21:46] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: debian.org <http://debian.org> published TLSA RR for mail.
[16:22:10] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: it is as expected "3 1 1"
[16:23:22] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: No browsers do DANE, mail does. So DANE is more mature for SMTP than for HTTP.
[16:24:06] <Dan York> Paul Hoffman at mic
[16:24:16] =JeffH leaves the room
[16:24:21] <mrex-ietf> maybe because victor maintains SMTP software rather than a web browser? :)
[16:24:23] =JeffH joins the room
[16:24:26] <Dan York> :-)
[16:25:02] <Dan York> (Yes, but if Comcast did it and things broke, customers would be whining on Twitter.)
[16:25:23] <Dan York> Peter Koch back at mic
[16:25:49] <Dan York> (Peter asked how we will know success or failure - hence this conversation)
[16:25:53] <Dan York> Russ Housely at mic
[16:26:02] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: test case servers should not be real domains.
[16:26:17] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: not real as in nobody expects real mail there.
[16:26:52] <Dan York> Eric Osterweil at mic
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[16:27:06] <Dan York> That was John Levine before me
[16:27:13] <Dan York> Eric thinks this is good
[16:27:35] <Dan York> Russ Housely at mic
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[16:27:57] <Dan York> Russ - we can expand to other IETF-related domains
[16:28:00] <Dan York> Lars Liman at mic
[16:28:05] <Dan York> Wes Hardaker at mic
[16:29:13] <Dan York> Consensus to go ahead  (no hums heard against)
[16:29:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> not the worst idea ever apparently :)
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[16:29:47] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
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[16:30:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: FIN.
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[16:32:19] <viktor_dukhovni> RELAY: Note: key rotation guidelines need to be well understood.  Main risk is failure when cert is updated without prior TLSA update.
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[16:32:40] <viktor_dukhovni> Really short RRSIG lifetime.
[16:32:53] <viktor_dukhovni> The TTL is less important.
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[16:34:17] <Dan York> The session ended
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