[00:46:16] jmspeex leaves the room [01:16:32] jmspeex joins the room [01:27:47] juinhwey joins the room [01:50:56] juinhwey leaves the room [05:15:07] gmaxwell joins the room [05:25:47] jmspeex leaves the room [05:28:29] jmspeex joins the room [05:48:48] gmaxwell leaves the room [05:53:17] jmspeex leaves the room [05:56:17] tterribe@jabber.org leaves the room [06:00:05] gmaxwell joins the room [06:03:20] gmaxwell has set the subject to: Codec WG meeting IETF-80 | http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/agenda?item=agenda80.html [06:05:03] jmspeex joins the room [06:16:15] tterribe@jabber.org joins the room [06:27:56] juinhwey joins the room [06:31:00] juinhwey leaves the room [06:34:42] juinhwey joins the room [06:42:28] Hi Raymond [06:42:37] Just to let you know that the IPR statement was updated [06:46:09] kwalsh joins the room [06:49:09] juinhwey leaves the room [06:49:52] gmaxwell has set the subject to: Codec WG meeting IETF-80 | http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/agenda?item=agenda80.html | http://ietf80streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf808.m3u [06:59:20] ron joins the room [07:02:59] RjS joins the room [07:03:04] swb joins the room [07:03:28] tomkrist joins the room [07:04:52] Jonathan Lennox joins the room [07:05:44] Cullen Jennings joins the room [07:05:57] SCRIBE joins the room [07:06:00] Wolfgang Beck joins the room [07:06:04] Kepeng Li joins the room [07:06:23] If you need something reflected to the mic, please use MIC: prepended to your comment. [07:06:34] Agenda slide now up. [07:07:03] Proceedings now has updated presentations--testing and ipr were changed; please update if your copies are not recent [07:07:17] Agenda Bash section now [07:07:52] hta joins the room [07:08:10] No Bashes; now on admin section [07:08:17] NOTE WELL [07:08:46] (Jabber room is also subject to NOTE WELL) [07:09:31] Michael Knappe stepping down as co-chair [07:09:38] round of applause for his work. [07:10:02] christopher.blizzard joins the room [07:10:03] Now on liaison update [07:10:30] can you hear on the stream? [07:10:33] suzukisn joins the room [07:10:36] LS from ITU-T SG16; Paul Coverdale speaking [07:11:02] now on "key messages" slide [07:12:02] Second "key messages" slide [07:12:21] 1st slide - "you don't know what you're doing" [07:12:25] "important performance characterisation is carried out prior to WGLC" [07:12:26] 2nd slide - "slow down" [07:13:09] "please keep us informed and use our expertise for review" [07:13:25] christopher.blizzard: yes, stream is loud and clear. [07:13:35] kwalsh: thank you [07:14:18] simo.veikkolainen joins the room [07:14:35] Stephan at the mic: use of this mailing has an advantage: it is not under NOTE WELL.. Disadvantage is that is not under NOTE WELL. [07:15:44] Cullen; on non-IETF mailing list--we would not use this to judge consensus. Get information whereever you want. But understand all decisions take place on mailing list subject to NOTE WELL. Open invitation to join that list. [07:16:00] Stephan at the front of the room: IPR Update [07:16:45] Disclosures: xiph, broadcom, skype from contributors. non-contributors--qualcomm [07:17:40] Note that Broadcomm license text and xiph.org is now the same. [07:19:44] gmaxwell has set the subject to: Codec WG meeting IETF-80 | http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/agenda?item=agenda80.html | http://ietf80streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf808.m3u | Say MIC: to have your comments spoken in the room [07:19:58] t.k joins the room [07:20:11] t.k leaves the room [07:20:19] t.k joins the room [07:20:58] t.k leaves the room [07:21:47] SCRIBE leaves the room [07:22:14] Can someone else scribe till Ted gets back [07:23:19] EKR joins the room [07:25:17] Andrew Allen at mic [07:28:56] hta leaves the room [07:29:33] Christian Hoene at mic [07:30:18] hta joins the room [07:30:55] Starting Requirement Presentation [07:32:26] It's worth mentioning, but perhaps not interrupting the room here: The WGLC being discussed is for the -requirements draft, not e.g. the Opus codec. [07:33:16] hristian Hoene at mic [07:36:32] Uh, I lost a C on that sorry - meant to say Christian Hoene at mic awhile back [07:36:54] PLC covered that, cheers ;) [07:37:10] :-) [07:38:22] FWIW, I believe there are 20 items left open, and most of them of them have a last update I made 2 months ago saying things "[blah blah] I believe we can close this issue." [07:38:45] I think that only Christian and I have ever touched the tracker directly. [07:40:32] ted.ietf joins the room [07:40:52] "we should add codecs so that testing is more expensive, but we shouldn't let the outcomes affect the decision"? [07:41:22] hta: is that for the mic? [07:41:29] oh, you're here :) [07:43:06] And we don't want to be sure this things work at all? [07:43:19] Gonzalo joins the room [07:43:21] ekr, no, I'm making snide comments in the background ..... and it was said at the mike anyway :-) [07:45:58] If anybody there wants to follow the other RAI session (SIPREC), you can use the following link: [07:45:59] http://meetecho.comics.unina.it/WebLite/login.jsp?ietf=siprec [07:48:44] hildjj joins the room [07:50:52] juinhwey joins the room [07:52:01] juinhwey leaves the room [07:54:03] juinhwey joins the room [07:54:59] "with hat" What hat? [07:55:56] hildjj leaves the room: Disconnected. [07:56:27] hta leaves the room [07:59:18] hta joins the room [07:59:20] hum [08:00:09] Anyone humming on chat indicate what you hum for [08:00:12] hildjj joins the room [08:00:14] (due to latency on the stream) [08:00:30] hum remove [08:01:00] I think we should be gauging hum quality, rather than volume. [08:01:31] hum remove [08:01:57] do we have consensus on what it means if we remove a codec from the list? [08:02:30] hta leaves the room [08:02:42] hta joins the room [08:03:39] the note taker is amused [08:04:55] hum move on! [08:05:55] Wolfgang Beck leaves the room [08:08:29] hildjj leaves the room: Disconnected. [08:14:52] hildjj joins the room [08:16:59] simo.veikkolainen leaves the room [08:17:18] swb leaves the room [08:25:16] EKR leaves the room [08:27:30] "Broadcom couldn't come but they sent their logo in their place" ;) [08:28:44] hm. Are the listening tests all done against reference codecs that are not in the requirements list? [08:30:22] Not ALL of them. [08:30:28] Cullen Jennings leaves the room [08:30:59] Right, and thats expected, and good, I think: People are interested in performance vs other things, even if those things are not _requirements_. [08:39:34] EKR joins the room [08:40:22] hildjj leaves the room: Disconnected. [08:40:28] We need to fix the mic [08:40:33] it's hardly audiable on the stream [08:40:47] Better? [08:40:57] Yes. [08:43:04] hildjj joins the room [08:45:11] It might be worth mentioning re: the frame sizes is that not all codecs have the same overlaps. E.g. G.719 IIRC has a 20ms overlap. Opus has a 2.5ms overlap. So though both have 20ms frames, one has 22.5ms algorithmic delay, while one has 40ms of algorithmic delay. [08:46:00] MIC [08:47:14] wolfgang.beck01 joins the room [08:48:37] hildjj leaves the room [08:52:56] Wideband and Narrowband are mushily defined terms, and AMR-WB is a narrowband codec ..... my head hurts. [08:57:23] EKR leaves the room [08:57:30] FWIW— I don't think any listeners 'missed' the reference in that NB test, instead they ranked it less than 100 but ranked nothing as 100 (perhaps they didn't understand the procedure, or fat fingered the slider) [08:59:48] EKR joins the room [09:09:34] Clarification: Stephan Wenger may have spent far too much time around lawyers, but he is not one (bless his soul) contrary to comments in the room just now. :) [09:10:08] EKR leaves the room [09:11:31] Perhaps we should have a "WHY" column on that too. "requirements" vs "marketing" vs "touchy feelies" or whatever [09:12:15] Where was the "everyone can create a codec" argument when we were trying to form the WG and people were saying that codecs were rocket surgery? :) [09:12:15] So we can debate more things? [09:12:54] Why: "Delaying the finalization of the codec" could be a option too. [09:13:27] + [09:13:46] dwillis joins the room [09:14:05] we have some test results. so far they look better than anyone really expected. if people have doubts they are representative, perhaps *they* should be suggesting an alternative they thing is [09:14:19] *think [09:15:27] EKR joins the room [09:17:40] So was he just dissing Xiph.Org or Broadcom? :) [09:17:54] or skype [09:17:57] or tim [09:18:00] not clear [09:18:08] who is talking? [09:18:09] maybe others haven't contributed because so far the testing shows their technology isn't competitive with the results of this process? [09:18:11] I think we can agree that Tim isn't a company. [09:18:21] dwillis: Stephan Wenger. [09:18:39] thanks [09:20:31] isn't no doubt in anyone's mind the definition of consensus? [09:21:19] ron, the definition of rough consensus is "those who have no doubt are the only ones who are still objecting". [09:23:27] :-) [09:23:54] ted.ietf leaves the room [09:23:57] not completely facetious - people who listen to arguments come down on a position while still having doubts about whether they are right. Those who refuse to listen to others' arguments are frequently those left in the "rough" part of "rough consensus" - and they are frequently free from doubt. [09:24:14] Gonzalo leaves the room [09:24:18] hta: I thought that expression was exceptionally elegant. [09:24:47] right, but then the burden of proof falls on them to prove their doubts [09:25:43] Ron, you can't prove a doubt. You can, however, doubt a proof. 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