[00:01:40] * quit: webchat-test (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) [00:08:04] * joined: xiphmont_ [00:08:16] [xiphmont_] bwah ha ha :-) [00:08:37] [xiphmont_] hold on, jabbering in too [00:08:48] * quit: webchat-test2 ("Page closed") [00:10:51] xiphmont joins the room [00:11:24] test [00:11:29] [xiphmont_] test [00:11:42] well done, laddie! [00:14:29] xiphmont leaves the room [00:15:00] [xiphmont_] yep, all good. [00:15:16] * left: xiphmont_ [00:53:54] [nessy] now you just need to hook it up to twitter ;) [00:56:32] gmaxwell leaves the room [00:59:05] petithug joins the room [01:00:45] petithug leaves the room [01:00:48] petithug joins the room [01:02:14] [gmaxwell] Identica! [01:51:45] daniel.g.petrie leaves the room [03:02:32] bkw_ joins the room [03:24:11] * joined: MikeJ [03:27:26] bemasc joins the room [03:30:46] rillian leaves the room [03:30:46] gmaxwell joins the room [03:34:58] * joined: kosmiester [03:35:38] * quit: kosmiester (Client Quit) [03:49:47] * quit: rillian (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [03:51:33] * joined: rillian [03:56:06] * joined: kosmiester [05:06:37] * joined: Henrik__ [05:17:15] * quit: Henrik__ (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) [05:57:01] stpeter joins the room [06:31:43] LIFEBOOK joins the room [06:52:00] * quit: rillian ("excess heat, cpu powered down.") [07:11:59] * quit: kosmiester ("Page closed") [07:22:44] Brian Zisk joins the room [07:30:53] ron joins the room [07:30:58] Kosmiester joins the room [07:39:46] stpeter leaves the room: Disconnected: connection closed [07:44:32] Brian Zisk leaves the room [07:44:33] Brian Zisk joins the room [07:49:39] Brian Zisk leaves the room [07:49:41] Brian Zisk joins the room [07:51:15] marcin.lubonski joins the room [07:57:53] Henrik joins the room [08:01:47] Brian Zisk leaves the room [08:12:38] marcin.lubonski leaves the room [08:13:30] Brian Zisk joins the room [08:30:19] stpeter joins the room [08:50:22] vborilin joins the room [08:54:10] stpeter leaves the room: Disconnected: connection closed [09:08:35] LIFEBOOK leaves the room [09:10:38] LIFEBOOK joins the room [09:11:41] megaloic joins the room [09:12:58] megaloic leaves the room [09:13:26] mixvoip joins the room [09:17:19] xiphmont joins the room [09:17:52] I... know many of these names. Good morning. [09:18:00] vborilin leaves the room [09:18:27] * joined: hoene [09:19:03] * joined: xiphmont_ [09:19:44] [xiphmont_] It's harder to see the IRC attendees from the other side. [09:23:48] xiphmont leaves the room [09:29:10] Henrik leaves the room [09:29:49] * quit: xiphmont_ ("Page closed") [09:33:34] * quit: hoene (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) [09:44:36] kvs78 joins the room [09:46:46] marcin.lubonski joins the room [09:48:29] marcin.lubonski leaves the room: Replaced by new connection [09:48:29] marcin.lubonski joins the room [09:54:21] johndrinkwater joins the room [10:09:57] williw joins the room [10:18:36] gmaxwell leaves the room [10:19:51] gmaxwell joins the room [10:20:58] !irc [10:21:02] !who [10:21:04] * members: derf, gmaxwell, Gumboot, MikeJ, MikeS_, nessy [10:24:30] marcin.lubonski leaves the room [10:32:12] Jack Moffitt joins the room [10:33:17] * joined: camsh_ft [10:33:37] gmaxwell where is the IRC channel? [10:33:58] The irc channel is on irc.freenode.net #codec-bof [10:34:30] * joined: bkw_ [10:34:43] bkw_ leaves the room [10:34:45] There is also a web gateway to the irc at http://people.xiph.org/~jm/bof_details.html (complete with plays in browser audio, if you're using Firefox 3.5) [10:35:18] [bkw_] thank you [10:36:25] Is there a link to the audio stream? [10:37:10] There is, on the link I provided above (http://people.xiph.org/~jm/bof_details.html) although the audio stream appears to mostly be noise at the moment. [10:37:48] Thanks! [10:38:02] Sjoerd Simons joins the room [10:38:07] * joined: ipse [10:40:00] tzafrir joins the room [10:40:39] Alfred Heggestad joins the room [10:41:48] Alexander.Chemeris joins the room [10:43:14] xiphmont joins the room [10:43:21] vborilin joins the room [10:43:24] Dafydd Harries joins the room [10:44:36] stpeter joins the room [10:44:52] Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST) joins the room [10:45:44] Guillaume Desmottes joins the room [10:46:24] Wolfgang Beck (remote) joins the room [10:46:28] katwalsh joins the room [10:47:42] petithug leaves the room [10:48:15] petithug joins the room [10:48:19] suzukisn joins the room [10:48:39] Cullen Jennings joins the room [10:48:43] stpeter leaves the room: Disconnected: conflict [10:48:44] stpeter joins the room [10:48:50] williw leaves the room [10:49:12] quite a crowd here already :) [10:49:19] I will be the jabber scribe [10:49:25] thx! [10:49:32] Thank you peter! [10:49:48] Nÿco joins the room [10:49:48] Hi, my name is Peter and I'll be your server today :) [10:49:52] Do folks know if the audio stream is up and working [10:49:54] stpeter: I think we can assume people care about this issue :) [10:50:09] i can hear some background noise [10:50:09] cullen: it's up but just low level room noise right now [10:50:13] Cullen: last I checked, mp3 stream and Ogg repeater were both up. [10:50:31] stpeter: Do we know where the audio is? The information I have says stream02, but I just hear quiet talking on top of a nice hum. I'm not completely sure that this is the correct stream. [10:50:31] you can hear talking if you turn the feed volume up [10:50:45] is somebody speaking already? [10:50:47] ingemar joins the room [10:50:53] no one is speaking yet [10:51:00] I shall clap. [10:51:00] I will go give a test to audio stream [10:51:13] I clapped. [10:51:16] Simon Perreault joins the room [10:51:19] and got many odd looks. [10:51:20] yup, heard that [10:51:25] Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST) has set the subject to: Codec (Audio: http://feed.verilan.com/ietf/stream02.m3u ) [10:51:33] Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST) is now known as oej (note taker) [10:51:35] daniel.g.petrie joins the room [10:51:41] vijay.gurbani joins the room [10:51:50] Cullen just said "test 1 2 3" [10:51:50] * joined: var1 [10:52:03] audio works [10:52:09] "Testing" [10:52:34] FTR, Ogg repeater is at: http://repeater.xiph.org:8000/IETF.ogg [10:52:40] quite some delay, but the ogg streams seems to work [10:53:00] xiphmont: are you in the room or remote? [10:53:01] Lars joins the room [10:53:15] I am present. [10:53:23] In the physical room. [10:53:26] bemasc leaves the room [10:53:49] the ogg link plays directly in firefox 3.5. Nice. [10:54:20] bens joins the room [10:54:21] * joined: paravoid [10:55:23] * left: ipse [10:55:36] audunv joins the room [10:55:49] Thorvald joins the room [10:55:52] OK folks, if someone wants me to relay information to the mic, please preface your statement with "mic:" [10:55:58] Joe Hildebrand joins the room [10:56:15] Stpeter can relay in many languages, although his Swedish is still a bit lacking... [10:56:42] hehe [10:56:47] John.Elwell joins the room [10:57:15] marcin.lubonski joins the room [10:57:42] stefan.sayer joins the room [10:57:53] stpeter is our SBC, relaying our media stream.. [10:58:08] Room is filling up [10:58:20] yes, SBC will kick any evil packets [10:58:29] [var1] this is working for me! [10:58:30] stpeter will as well [10:59:05] Theo joins the room [10:59:07] [var1] I can hear things too, thanks to firefox 3.5 [10:59:08] Lisa Dusseault joins the room [10:59:33] As a note taker on the right hand side of the room, I might need assistance with name tags on speakers on the left hand mic. Thank you beforehand! [10:59:48] house right or stage right? [11:00:12] kpfleming joins the room [11:00:22] Adam Roach joins the room [11:00:29] Glenn Parsons joins the room [11:00:29] Glenn Parsons leaves the room [11:00:40] * joined: sergforce [11:00:58] * joined: xiphmont-irc [11:01:20] AndyHutton joins the room [11:01:31] * joined: raju [11:01:37] bens leaves the room [11:01:42] [raju] hi [11:02:02] bens joins the room [11:02:07] I don't think I've seen a WG chatroom this full before [11:02:14] this is going to be epic [11:02:30] [bkw_] Simon yep [11:02:31] is this the plenary already? [11:02:33] 44 users in the chat room [11:02:40] Well the future of the free world is at stake here :-) [11:02:45] heh [11:02:45] !who [11:02:46] * members: bkw_, camsh_ft, derf, gmaxwell, Gumboot, MikeJ, MikeS_, nessy, paravoid, raju, sergforce, var1, xiphmont-irc [11:02:57] people are still filing in to the physical room [11:03:05] [bkw_] how big is the room? [11:03:09] 44 members in chat room and a bunch connecting through IRC [11:03:18] [bkw_] 13 on IRC. [11:03:19] bkw_: big enough [11:03:39] Glenn Parsons joins the room [11:03:46] Hello from Stockholm to all in the chat room [11:03:48] * joined: dhaneesh [11:03:49] doe joins the room [11:03:57] [bkw_] Wish I was there! [11:03:59] [raju] hi [11:04:04] [raju] dhaneesh [11:04:06] [dhaneesh] j [11:04:11] [dhaneesh] ji sir [11:04:17] [dhaneesh] hw u [11:04:21] ..but we have more leg room here in our offices.. [11:04:30] [raju] This tweet I got from the person who develpoed strophe [11:04:30] Rechat for newcomers: OK folks, if someone wants me to relay information to the mic, please preface your statement with "mic:" [11:04:31] rtb joins the room [11:04:45] [raju] Anyway thanks to metajack [11:04:45] [dhaneesh] okke [11:04:46] to hum, type "mic: *hum*" [11:04:56] [dhaneesh] ha ha [11:04:56] magnus joins the room [11:04:58] or mic::*HUM* [11:05:00] [raju] :) [11:05:07] [dhaneesh] :) [11:05:18] "mic: ISDN sounds so much better than Skype" :-) [11:05:18] Chairs are preparing, people are still wandering in [11:05:59] [dhaneesh] jj; [11:06:05] tomkri joins the room [11:06:08] the room is starting to quiet down [11:06:11] [raju] 15 minutes until IETF codec BOF starts in Stockholm. If you care about royalty-free codecs, you might like to attend: http://bit.ly/sHEXP [11:06:16] [dhaneesh] ssad [11:06:16] we're about to start [11:06:24] Thomas Stach joins the room [11:06:29] SwedeMike joins the room [11:06:33] dwd joins the room [11:06:42] <-- Jabber Scribe [11:06:49] Magnus Bergman joins the room [11:06:53] RjS joins the room [11:06:53] csp joins the room [11:06:55] lebobits joins the room [11:06:56] * joined: dog3z_ [11:06:59] how is the audio? [11:06:59] Ted Hardie joins the room [11:07:01] mkt.xx joins the room [11:07:04] ag@ag-projects.com joins the room [11:07:05] audio is good [11:07:05] [derf] Loud and clear. [11:07:06] pretty good [11:07:12] eburger joins the room [11:07:13] [dhaneesh] its good [11:07:13] marshall joins the room [11:07:16] victor joins the room [11:07:17] Ogg is about 30s behind, but good [11:07:18] [bkw_] its ok. [11:07:18] LM joins the room [11:07:19] [raju] individual meesge has problem [11:07:30] jon-ietf joins the room [11:07:31] JonathanLennox joins the room [11:07:33] johndrinker: thanks [11:07:38] [raju] Its not easily identified [11:07:47] [raju] check the tab [11:07:57] [raju] both has same color [11:08:08] [dhaneesh] ys [11:08:14] agenda bashing [11:08:16] BTW, twitter tags of #ietf #codec [11:08:22] [dhaneesh] tahts issue [11:08:24] jmspeex joins the room [11:08:28] Alan joins the room [11:08:30] johndrinkwater, Possibly quieter than the usual MP3, actually. WHich takes some doing. [11:08:31] roni_even joins the room [11:08:31] Robert Sparks ATM [11:08:42] btw I am using "ATM" to mean "at the mic" [11:08:46] williw joins the room [11:08:48] Bruce joins the room [11:08:49] * joined: RalphBonnell [11:08:53] * joined: vvas [11:09:09] mhp joins the room [11:09:11] Monty Montgomery ATM [11:09:25] Roni Even ATM [11:09:28] ipbaobao joins the room [11:09:32] 20 secs delay on ogg feed, otherwise 10 secs [11:09:53] johndrinkwater: apologies for assuming you were padding slightly :-) [11:09:56] Roni: the topic "Engineering Work" does not explain what exactly will be discussed [11:09:56] * quit: dog3z_ (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) [11:10:14] np [11:10:25] Magnus Bergman leaves the room [11:10:49] Please remember the note well applies here, including on audio and jabber [11:10:53] Magnus Bergman joins the room [11:10:58] Jason: the topic will be the *type* of work that would be done [11:11:10] Christian Schaller joins the room [11:11:27] Jason: the codecs to be discussed will be limited to 5 minutes each [11:11:36] Cullen Jennings to present [11:11:42] marcin.lubonski leaves the room [11:12:05] hta joins the room [11:12:08] Cullen: things for the IESG/IAB to learn... [11:12:11] Christian Schaller leaves the room [11:12:34] marcin.lubonski joins the room [11:12:39] Note Well Any submission to the IETF intended by the Contributor for publication as all or part of an IETF Internet-Draft or RFC and any statement made within the context of an IETF activity is considered an "IETF Contribution". Such statements include oral statements in IETF sessions, as well as written and electronic communications made at any time or place, which are addressed to: The IETF plenary session The IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG Any IETF mailing list, including the IETF list itself, any working group or design team list, or any other list functioning under IETF auspices Any IETF working group or portion thereof The IAB or any member thereof on behalf of the IAB The RFC Editor or the Internet-Drafts function All IETF Contributions are subject to the rules of RFC 5378 and RFC 3979 (updated by RFC 4879). Statements made outside of an IETF session, mailing list or other function, that are clearly not intended to be input to an IETF activity, group or function, are not IETF Contributions in the context of this notice. Please consult RFC 5378 and RFC 3979 for details. A participant in any IETF activity is deemed to accept all IETF rules of process, as documented in Best Current Practices RFCs and IESG Statements. A participant in any IETF activity acknowledges that written, audio and video records of meetings may be made and may be available to the public. [11:12:57] thank you Joe [11:13:02] Joe Hildebrand: ah, that's good [11:13:28] Cullen says to explain not just why you like or dislike something, but the reasons why [11:13:30] Are these slides available somewhere? [11:13:33] christian.schaller joins the room [11:14:10] reload the meeting material page [11:14:12] agenda: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/75/agenda/codec.txt [11:14:21] danwing joins the room [11:14:27] * joined: erpanoi [11:14:30] materials https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/75/materials.html [11:14:33] stephanwenger joins the room [11:14:41] * quit: erpanoi (Client Quit) [11:14:59] Stephan Wenger [11:15:13] Cullen quotes from BCP 79 [11:15:14] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/75/slides/codec-0.pdf [11:15:20] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/75/slides/codec-1.pdf [11:15:39] mhp leaves the room [11:15:41] Alan H joins the room [11:15:45] That last was Cullen's deck [11:15:50] Xavier Majou (?) [11:15:53] question at mic from unknown speaker [11:16:04] BCP 79 = http://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp79 [11:16:05] 2413 reference. does this apply? [11:16:09] vvas joins the room [11:16:14] michael joins the room [11:16:18] cullen: yes other SDOs will be interfaced with as required [11:16:18] PasiS joins the room [11:16:52] Alan H: RFC 2413 is Dublin Core Metadata :) [11:16:54] rfc2418, presumably? [11:16:55] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2418.txt [11:16:59] simobacsi joins the room [11:17:02] typo. yes :-) [11:17:12] Patrik Faltstrom ATM [11:17:15] * left: vvas [11:17:20] Hendrik Scholz joins the room [11:17:32] sal joins the room [11:17:46] Alan leaves the room [11:17:54] LIFEBOOK leaves the room [11:17:57] Next deck: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/75/slides/codec-2.pdf [11:18:09] Patrik thanks Cullen for covering the BCP 79 [11:18:19] Jean-Marc Valin speaking [11:18:44] presenting about the Codec Landscape [11:18:45] lynch joins the room [11:18:57] Henry Sinnreich ATM [11:19:13] Jean-Francois joins the room [11:19:16] "why is SILK not in the list?" [11:19:26] Jason: not a comprehensive list [11:19:33] Stefan Brunn ATM [11:19:37] Mingdong joins the room [11:19:43] nils joins the room [11:19:49] Let me comment that while it is clear that the newer G.xxx series are royalty-bearing codecs, it is not necessarily the case that the "RF" codecs here are actually free. [11:19:52] [bkw_] Last I checked doesn't silk run at 24000kHz? [11:19:52] Bruhn, sorry [11:19:56] [bkw_] er Hz [11:20:20] Greg Leibovitz ATM [11:20:42] [bkw_] Isn't G726 also Royalty Free? [11:20:46] (point of order about using the mic) [11:20:47] yes [11:20:48] please speak clearly into the Mic and say your name slowly (channelling Dean Willis) [11:20:54] GF joins the room [11:20:59] but G.726 is not very much use [11:21:24] michael leaves the room [11:21:25] michael joins the room [11:21:28] I shall repeat: if you want me to channel a question or information to the meeting, please preface your statement with "MIC:" [11:21:32] Ted Hardie ATM [11:21:54] Ted: traditionally more experience with apps [11:21:59] Ted: is this list comprehensive? [11:22:02] * quit: dhaneesh (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) [11:22:31] Ted: might be good to have input from applications [11:22:43] Sol ? ATM [11:22:45] Slava Borilin at the mic [11:23:10] Slava: not a comprehensive list, that might be part of the WG's work (if approved) [11:23:17] Roni Even ATM [11:23:36] bens leaves the room [11:23:37] Ted Hardy ATM [11:23:44] Ted: is this a constraining list? [11:23:45] Ted : is this constraining or not [11:23:49] Jason : just examples [11:23:50] Jason: this is not constraining [11:23:58] Roni at the mic [11:23:58] Adam Roach leaves the room [11:24:03] Roni: the charter has some limitations [11:24:12] Joe HIldebrand ATM [11:24:29] jackn joins the room [11:24:30] Joe: there are some apps people here [11:24:32] bens joins the room [11:24:34] jackn leaves the room [11:24:44] next slide [11:24:48] "Goals" [11:24:49] jackn joins the room [11:25:24] "Widely and easily distributable and accessible codec technology" [11:25:24] Adam Roach joins the room [11:25:27] Hmm. A technical goal would be nice, just to have on the list. [11:25:41] Ted: Interoperability? [11:26:09] Hmm - I see technical considerations on net slide so perhaps they will get to that [11:26:14] Jason: not an intent to create a codec factory [11:26:16] Cullen: cool [11:26:17] small comment: it would be better to give the number of the current slide instead of just "next slide" for people just entering the Jabber room. [11:26:20] Stefan Bruhn ATM [11:26:24] giles_heron joins the room [11:26:36] petithug: it's tiny on the corner, sorry [11:26:39] petithug: the slide numbers are difficult to see from where I am [11:26:40] petithug: the slide numbers are very small. i think it's 2. [11:26:43] ("Goals" is the current title) [11:26:49] Harald Alvestrand ATM [11:26:55] petithug, stpeter is calling out the titles. [11:27:03] magnus leaves the room [11:27:10] great thx [11:27:15] Harald: is the operating space meant to be interactive audio? [11:27:19] Jean-Marc: yes [11:27:24] Monty Montgomery ATM [11:27:27] petithug, Or at least, some of what he says is the titles. :-) [11:27:32] michael leaves the room [11:27:52] Monty: within the IETF we would be solving problems that IETFers have [11:27:56] Alan D joins the room [11:27:59] michael joins the room [11:28:01] We are on slide #3 [11:28:02] magnus joins the room [11:28:22] Monty: looking for cross-area review [11:28:37] Monty: we did not have that kind of input 10 years ago when designing Vorbis [11:28:43] Stefan Bruhn ATM [11:28:53] On to slide #4 [11:29:07] * joined: aarnesen [11:29:31] sureshk joins the room [11:29:31] is this an inclusive list? [11:30:06] StPeter at mic [11:30:14] * joined: jp [11:30:28] marcin.lubonski leaves the room [11:30:42] Monty at the mic [11:30:43] * nick: jp is now Guest53607 [11:30:59] Magnus Bergman leaves the room [11:31:10] Monty: here we have a fighting chance to do something open [11:31:12] Joe Hildebrand ATM [11:31:33] Colin Perkins ATM [11:31:41] JH: folks should take interop with applications into account no matter the work we are doing here [11:31:44] marcin.lubonski joins the room [11:31:54] martensson.jonas joins the room [11:32:03] (random note to future Jabber scribes -- seat yourself next to the mic so that you can see people's nametags :) [11:32:21] /stpeter A fine tip. [11:32:28] Alan: should, but don't always. [11:32:31] LM leaves the room: Replaced by new connection [11:32:47] spot on mate! [11:32:51] jackn leaves the room [11:33:01] missed ATM name [11:33:06] someone speaking from the University of Tuebingen [11:33:21] Christian Hoehne [11:33:28] UoT : there are other requirements that have not always been considered. [11:33:42] Roni Even at the mic [11:33:58] bens leaves the room [11:34:19] michael leaves the room [11:34:21] Roni: the IETF could produce requirements for submission to other standards bodies [11:34:25] Joe falls over hiimself to get to the mic [11:34:25] xavier ATM [11:34:29] hahaha! [11:34:30] hah [11:34:31] This is a joke [11:34:48] Anisse Taleb ATM [11:34:54] bens joins the room [11:35:01] I could not hear xavier over Joe's kerfuffle :-) sorry [11:35:02] Anisse: MPEG or ITU are not less open than the IETF [11:35:03] mjh joins the room [11:35:09] Be fair to Roni. it is not a stupid way to do things; we're also free to ingnore advice that we feel is harmful to our efforts. [11:35:19] Francois joins the room [11:35:25] marcin.lubonski leaves the room: Replaced by new connection [11:35:28] They're simply a littl emore.... formal and institutional about it. [11:35:50] Anisse: I agree with Stefan about the requirements [11:36:00] Joe Hildebrand ATM [11:36:03] [derf] And where is the Jabber chatroom for the next ITU meeting? [11:36:04] Yes, but we don't have to give permission for people to attend. People don't have to pay to read our documents. And we don't tell non-members that their opinions are so irrelevant that they don't get a voice [11:36:07] [It was simply an unfortunate way to say it] [11:36:13] I assert our definitions of open do not have significant overlay [11:36:16] marcin.lubonski joins the room [11:36:23] Roni Even at the mic [11:36:28] when attendancemust be invited or approved -- that is different than our version of open [11:36:34] victor leaves the room [11:36:47] Patrik Faltstrom at the mic [11:36:55] roni - the meetings are not canonical . the mailing lists are [11:36:56] michael joins the room [11:37:08] er -- that should have been Joe [11:37:26] JH : the meetings are not canonical . the mailing lists are.. (correction) [11:37:42] Patrik: this line of discussion is not productive, let us move along [11:37:48] continuting to slide "technical considerations" [11:37:52] Slide 4 [11:38:14] mlm.michael.miller joins the room [11:38:47] * quit: aarnesen ("Page closed") [11:38:57] Christian ATM [11:39:11] Christian H : how did these technical considerations get derived? [11:39:13] mic: is stereo or multichannel assumed? [11:39:18] will transport over IP consideration come later? [11:39:21] * joined: GF [11:39:24] daniel.g.petrie: yes [11:39:41] jitter/latency/packet loss etc? [11:39:47] SwedeMike: transport over IP is usually handled in the AVT working group [11:40:06] SwedeMike: Yes. I feel that's implicit in 'Internet' ut good to be clear [11:40:10] so the fact how this is going to be carried doesn't come into the codec design? [11:40:11] Has anyone proposed low bitrates as an interesting consideration on the list? [11:40:28] SwedeMike: I will ask your questions in the meeting [11:40:30] SwedeMike: of course it does [11:40:32] simobacsi leaves the room [11:40:34] SwedeMike: 'Cross-Area' it's not our area, but it is part of what we care about. [11:40:35] [bkw_] gmaxwell: next slide [11:40:36] Francois leaves the room [11:40:38] you can't get high quality low delay low bit rate codec. [11:40:44] simobacsi joins the room [11:40:45] stpeter_: I'm in the room, should I bring them up now? [11:40:50] ted hardie atm [11:40:51] [bkw_] very low bitrate is out of scope it says [11:41:09] bkw_ Well, I thought it was. I don't think anyone has brought it up. [11:41:11] SwedeMike: if you are in the meeting, then please use the mic if desired [11:41:12] bens leaves the room [11:41:21] bens joins the room [11:41:22] * joined: j^ [11:41:24] TH: one thing that has not been brought up .. desire to avid transcoding [11:41:32] I've heard several references to "the charter", but there's no pointer in the meeting agenda. Can anyone help me? [11:41:39] Francois Lefebvre joins the room [11:41:40] [bkw_] gmaxwell: I think very low bit rate should be considered for technical reasons. [11:42:04] TH: addition of TC introduces delay and fragility, must be careful. if you avoid transcoding by picking a winner, you need to be wary of collusion and ensure the elephants are noted in he room [11:42:26] TH: if we arent just trying to avoid TC then why arent we doing the template factory... ? [11:42:36] Colin Perkins at the mic [11:42:49] I'm not familiar with IETF's perspectives here; is picking a single standard for interoperability not a typical consideration? [11:43:11] Francois Audet ATM [11:43:22] hta http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/75/slides/codec-6.txt draft charter, is being discussed later afaik [11:43:33] * quit: GF (Client Quit) [11:43:34] michael leaves the room [11:43:39] Colin perkins is making a lot of sense [11:43:46] FA: when choices are made .. it we take this in isolation .. we can end up with far from optimal results... [11:43:49] ah - should have known to look in the meeting materials. Thanks! [11:43:58] michael joins the room [11:44:02] draft charter: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/75/slides/codec-6.txt [11:44:07] Francois Audet ATM [11:44:08] FA: how this fits with SIP and SDP.. what is in band, what is out of band? [11:44:15] * quit: raju ("Page closed") [11:44:36] FA: what are the IETF specific / clearly the best body to look at, and make sure that is in scope [11:44:46] Monty ATM [11:45:15] [bkw_] is transcoding that much of an issue with wide band/superband codecs? [11:45:52] take DECT phones, they do G.722 on the air, nothing else. [11:46:09] transcoding is especially negative with highly compressing model based encoders [11:46:10] SDP negotiation is a perfect point - AMR is an example of aweful codec for SDP negotiation. It's (almost?) impossible to implement it correctly. [11:46:14] Magnus Bergman joins the room [11:46:20] Christian H ATM [11:46:20] Christian ATM [11:46:40] U Tubegin [11:46:46] (sp!) [11:47:10] Christian : end to end means there is no transcoding need. [11:47:11] Yes, AMR-WB SDP negotation, the case for TCP support in SIP end devices :-) [11:47:21] Mikael Abrahamsson ATM [11:47:48] End-to-end is also handled by multiple codecs and CONNEG-style selection [11:47:55] Presuming we're thinking of sip/sdp [11:48:02] Iagree with Mikael big time [11:48:03] We don't need to pick a winner to get that [11:48:10] Jean-Marc: this is not a complete list [11:48:18] isn't real-time adaptive bitrate quite internet focused? :) [11:48:22] who's at the mic? [11:48:25] source control of bitrate vs frame erasure resilience would be internet transport specific [11:48:26] unknown will check [11:48:44] alan: thanks [11:48:50] bens leaves the room [11:48:54] julian neubek (sp?) [11:48:54] julien meuric [11:48:56] LM joins the room [11:48:58] Thanks you. [11:49:04] bens joins the room [11:49:05] speaker says these considerations are not IETF-specific [11:49:21] I think the point of the previous slide with the green text was that there wasn't much in the way of existing, deployed solutions. [11:49:21] michael leaves the room [11:49:21] michael joins the room [11:49:25] lynch leaves the room [11:49:49] see PSTN gateway vendors squirm when you ask them about codecs that have been invented after 1999.. [11:50:07] [bkw_] Wolfgang my exact concern [11:50:08] who is this ? [11:50:10] please note that these technical considerations are taken directly from the charter -- people who didn't like the list of considerations could have spoken up on the mailing list [11:50:11] looking [11:50:18] this is Slava Borilin speaking [11:50:35] sorry, but the charter will not be finalized until AFTER the BOF [11:50:41] marshall indeed [11:50:47] YOU CANNOT SAY DO NOT DISCUSS THE CHARTER IN A BOF [11:50:59] marshall but proposed charters have been discussed on the list for weeks [11:51:04] sure [11:51:09] but not finalized [11:51:17] indeed [11:51:17] Not everyone in the room has been following the list, of course [11:51:17] marshall, Sure, I think PSA's point is that people could easily have had this debate well in advance. [11:51:32] see CSP's point [11:51:34] Anisse at the list [11:51:37] this is why we have BOFs [11:51:40] it may be that certain requirements were considered obvious, and need to be called out explicitly [11:51:42] @dwd this meeting is the forum for the debate [11:51:45] csp: there are list archives :) [11:51:56] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/codec/current/maillist.html [11:52:07] IOW: "These are the criteria that we always use for codecs, so they appear to be correct." [11:52:16] Echoing Joe, I didn't bring up the currently mentioned "missing requirements" because I considered them obvious. [11:52:18] plenty of codecs do not do vbr, much less real-time bitrate changes [11:52:24] @stpeter I read them; but you can't assume everyone did [11:52:28] (In the context of 'codecs for the internet') [11:52:33] and most do not fit IPR preferences [11:52:35] Is there a reason why we should not be discussing specific existing codecs? [11:52:45] [bkw_] VBR is also a concern if you're doing SRTP [11:52:58] BTW discussion logs are at http://jabber.ietf.org/logs/codec/2009-07-30.txt [11:53:10] bens: if there are existing codecs that meet the needs, those should be brought forward. [11:53:10] "The best way to stop transcoding is to stop standardizing them" [11:53:22] PasiS leaves the room [11:53:28] (quote of current speaker) [11:53:42] sureshk leaves the room [11:53:46] Keith Drage ATM [11:53:46] Keith Drage at the mic [11:54:25]