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[15:56:58] <Aki> We will start in 4 minutes.
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[16:00:11] <Aki> Welcome! This is the Calsify WG meeting.
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[16:01:08] <alexeymelnikov> I got volunteered to scribe
[16:01:14] <alexeymelnikov> Agenda bashing
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[16:01:33] <Aki> Thank you Alexey.
[16:01:49] <alexeymelnikov> Cyrus will present some additional simplifications suggestions from CalConnect
[16:01:58] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot doesn
[16:02:20] <alexeymelnikov> 't think that we will get to Bernard's issue he posted recently
[16:02:52] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot talks about Administrativia
[16:03:12] <alexeymelnikov> Good progress on closing issues
[16:03:29] <alexeymelnikov> Last Call on new issues for 2445bis is tomorrow
[16:03:40] --- Barry Leiba has joined
[16:04:39] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot thanks Bernard for recent progress on 2445bis, also other editors
[16:04:54] <alexeymelnikov> Cyrus will present on simplifications.
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[16:05:17] <alexeymelnikov> Slides are already on IETF web site
[16:05:19] <Aki> Link to tracker: http://ofcourseimright.com/cgi-bin/roundup/calsify/
[16:05:55] <alexeymelnikov> Cyrus talking
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[16:06:06] <alexeymelnikov> Recurrence: Mobiles
[16:06:16] <Aki> Sliders at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/calsify-0.pdf
[16:06:36] <alexeymelnikov> based on CalConnect feedback (feedback from OMA DS group)
[16:07:16] <alexeymelnikov> Mobile devices have a restricted UI, which restricts what can be edited
[16:07:46] <alexeymelnikov> Lisa did a research on desktop clients several months ago, this is kind of similar
[16:08:17] <alexeymelnikov> No client implement all possible recurrence rules
[16:08:24] <alexeymelnikov> Proposal:
[16:08:29] <alexeymelnikov> Remove:
[16:08:46] <alexeymelnikov> 1) FREQ=SECONDLY/MINUTELY
[16:08:54] <alexeymelnikov> 2) BYSECONF/BYMINUTE
[16:09:26] <alexeymelnikov> (both not useful for inter personal communications)
[16:10:04] <alexeymelnikov> Lisa suggested to remove HOURLY as well, but this might be useful (e.g. a person who has to take medication every 8 hours)
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[16:10:50] <alexeymelnikov> OMA DS people wanted to see a table showing which rules are allowed togather
[16:11:30] <alexeymelnikov> Is this going to be Profiling or do simplification (i.e. remove from 2445bis)
[16:12:26] <alexeymelnikov> Dave Crocker: the question implied the answer: need to start from a small subset
[16:12:35] <alexeymelnikov> This will help interoperability
[16:13:22] <alexeymelnikov> Cyrus: how much better richer desktop clients would be
[16:13:51] <alexeymelnikov> Maybe there is no difference between features needed for mobile and desktop?
[16:14:51] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: we are not starting from scratch, but we "are pulling stuff out"
[16:15:28] <alexeymelnikov> Dave Crocker: use "existence" test for keeping features in 2445bis
[16:15:54] <alexeymelnikov> Dave Crocker: use needs of mobile devices as the base
[16:17:29] <alexeymelnikov> Cyrus: different clients would like to implement different subsets of recurrences. We need to specify fallback for clients that can't handle some recurrences
[16:17:53] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: any other simplications?
[16:18:32] <alexeymelnikov> Cyrus: table of rule compatibilities
[16:19:04] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: this can end up being more complex for implementors, as clients need to check which cases are not allowed
[16:19:22] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: we need to see an initial table before deciding on this issue
[16:20:29] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: The rest of the meeting will be spent on open 2445bis issues
[16:20:59] <alexeymelnikov> Issues 13, 14, 24, 25: RRULE simplifications
[16:21:13] <alexeymelnikov> Status: Text in draft
[16:21:30] <alexeymelnikov> DTSTART must match the RRULEs
[16:21:36] <alexeymelnikov> Deprecate EXRULE
[16:21:53] <alexeymelnikov> RRULEs SHOULD NOT occur more than once
[16:22:26] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 16: BY Rule beyond duration
[16:23:15] <alexeymelnikov> Status: Example Proposed
[16:24:54] <alexeymelnikov> Example needs fixing to be consistent with the other issues we just discussed
[16:25:28] <alexeymelnikov> (Issue is about February 30th)
[16:26:17] <alexeymelnikov> Consensus is to skip instances with invalid dates, rather than ignoring the whole rule
[16:27:23] <alexeymelnikov> Cyrus: similar issue with times when DST shift occurs (e.g. 3am doesn't exist on a date, or 1.30am happens twice)
[16:27:55] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: whoever opens this issue needs to propose some text
[16:29:28] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 19: IANA considerations
[16:30:06] <alexeymelnikov> No text
[16:30:28] <alexeymelnikov> Also need to populate the IANA registry
[16:32:39] <alexeymelnikov> Bernard: need multiple registries: components, properties, enumerated types, etc.
[16:32:52] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: this is a lot of work
[16:33:46] <alexeymelnikov> Suggestion to update description of properties to use IANA templates.
[16:34:26] <alexeymelnikov> Do we need expert review?
[16:35:00] <alexeymelnikov> Lisa: would prefer to explore other alternative before deciding on expert review
[16:35:13] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: need text for this
[16:35:30] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 27: DTEND/DURATION
[16:35:50] <alexeymelnikov> Issue is about the corner case when DST shift occurs
[16:35:55] <alexeymelnikov> No consensus
[16:39:26] <ludwigwan> what if tdend does not exist
[16:40:04] <alexeymelnikov> Bernard: duration might not match the nominal duration (1 day can be 23, 24 or 25 hours)
[16:41:10] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: need some text first, we can't close the issue before that
[16:41:32] <alexeymelnikov> Cyrus: suggest to run some tests
[16:42:13] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 28: Is RDATE required even when the recurrence instance is defined in a separate component?
[16:43:09] <alexeymelnikov> Bernard: suggest to relax the requirement
[16:43:15] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: still need text
[16:43:23] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 32: Streams
[16:43:41] <alexeymelnikov> Status: text proposed / no discussion
[16:44:45] <alexeymelnikov> Issue: ABNF change, some text
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[16:45:51] <alexeymelnikov> It makes difference for a stream containing multiple component. Does each object has to have own timezone definitions, or can one object reference timezones in another?
[16:46:37] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 34: methods with multiple objects
[16:48:37] <alexeymelnikov> Can a stream contain objects with multiple methods - yes, but don't specify METHOD= in Content-type
[16:48:48] <alexeymelnikov> Bernard/Alexey: decide on text
[16:48:57] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 36: X-name
[16:49:09] <alexeymelnikov> Status: no consensus
[16:49:23] <alexeymelnikov> Issue is use of the word "bilateral"
[16:50:36] <alexeymelnikov> Bernard: suggest to drop "bilateral agreement"
[16:50:51] <alexeymelnikov> Remains open
[16:50:58] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 42: ALARM actions
[16:51:06] <alexeymelnikov> Status: open / no text
[16:51:39] <alexeymelnikov> Conflict between sections 4.6.6 and
[16:52:40] <alexeymelnikov> (Allow extensions to action types)
[16:53:05] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 43: proper form of DTSTART
[16:53:15] <alexeymelnikov> Status open / no text
[16:53:43] <alexeymelnikov> Issue is whether DTSTART can use UTC in a VTIMEZONE component
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[16:54:48] <alexeymelnikov> Bernard recommends "no"
[16:56:03] <alexeymelnikov> I.e. localtime should be used in recurrences
[16:57:50] <alexeymelnikov> ?: Is UTC is just a special case for a timezone with no DST?
[16:58:53] <alexeymelnikov> Ted: there is a difference between saying that something is not advisable and saying that something is invalid
[16:59:51] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: consensus to have this restriction in VTIMEZONE, but not in the other case
[17:00:04] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 44: Non-standard properties
[17:00:14] <alexeymelnikov> Status: Open / No text
[17:00:45] <alexeymelnikov> x-param is not allowed in a non standard property. Why?
[17:01:37] <alexeymelnikov> Bernard: it is existing practice to allow for them
[17:01:45] <alexeymelnikov> Consensus to remove the restriction
[17:01:54] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 45: Bad LDAP URLs
[17:02:02] <alexeymelnikov> Should be fixed now
[17:03:01] <alexeymelnikov> Also add informative reference to LDAP URI spec
[17:03:43] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 47: Trigger relative to DATE value type
[17:04:06] <alexeymelnikov> Issue is whether date is relative to Zulu or localtime
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[17:04:34] <alexeymelnikov> This is underspecified
[17:05:00] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: suggest to check what people do
[17:06:17] <alexeymelnikov> Cyrus will propose some text
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[17:10:12] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 46: ABNF
[17:10:51] <alexeymelnikov> Consensus: not rewrite ABNFs, but remove <number> before '*
[17:11:03] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 48: Deprecate RANGE
[17:11:13] <alexeymelnikov> Status: open / no text
[17:11:32] <alexeymelnikov> Is RANGE=THISANDFUTURE (for example) ever used?
[17:12:01] <alexeymelnikov> Suggestion to drop it
[17:12:29] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 51: Non-inclusive end on events with DATE
[17:12:37] <alexeymelnikov> Just need to clarify text
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[17:13:42] <alexeymelnikov> Cyrus has a proposed text
[17:13:51] <alexeymelnikov> Accept, pending confirmation on the mailing list
[17:14:39] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 52: disallow x-name in RRULEs (additional rules)
[17:14:56] <alexeymelnikov> Bernard: somebody can add x-parameter to do the same thing
[17:15:22] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 53: Content Lines and non-US-ASCII
[17:16:38] <alexeymelnikov> ABNF for NON-US-ASCII should be updated for UTF-8
[17:17:20] <alexeymelnikov> Issue 54: Version Value Bunp?
[17:17:26] <alexeymelnikov> Status: open / no text
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[17:19:55] <alexeymelnikov> Bernard tested this and implementations ignore the version number
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[17:23:43] <alexeymelnikov> Other issues (not in the tracker)
[17:24:30] <alexeymelnikov> Section 4.3.10: Order of rule parts (ABNF issue)
[17:25:38] <alexeymelnikov> FREQ= is not necessarily the first one
[17:27:31] <alexeymelnikov> Or change the text to say that FREQ= has to be the first?
[17:29:22] <alexeymelnikov> Section 4.6.1 Event Components: DURATION when DTSTART is DATE
[17:29:41] <alexeymelnikov> Then duration can't be in hours
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[17:33:17] <alexeymelnikov> If DTEND is missing and DTSTART is DATE, the event takes 1 day. How does this affect transparency? (Text elsewhere say that the event takes no time. Text inconsistent)
[17:33:51] <alexeymelnikov> Eliot: need to check what people are doing
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[17:34:13] <alexeymelnikov> Journal component: DESCRIPTION property
[17:34:43] <alexeymelnikov> Proposal: fix ABNF to allow for multiple DESCRIPTION (to match the text)
[17:35:38] <alexeymelnikov> Section 4.6.5: Time Zone Component: Not required when DTSTART is a DATE
[17:37:09] <alexeymelnikov> (Drop the issue)
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[17:37:34] <alexeymelnikov> Section 4.1.2 Multiple Values: Language parameter
[17:39:44] <alexeymelnikov> If there is a DESCRIPTION in English and in French: is one the transaltion of the other? Or are they just updating each other?
[17:40:40] <alexeymelnikov> Suggestion to use MIME to handle alternative representations. iCalendar is not designed for this case
[17:41:10] <alexeymelnikov> Section Time Zone Identifier: Scope of TZID
[17:41:42] <alexeymelnikov> Need to clarify the scope of uniqueness (it should be a calendar object)
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[17:42:26] <alexeymelnikov> Section Recurrence ID: RECURRENCE-ID of an instance might change?
[17:46:29] <alexeymelnikov> Changes to RRULE are not handled well in iTIP (how do you track previous instances)
[17:47:48] <alexeymelnikov> Section Recurrence Date/Times: RDATE<DTSTART
[17:51:39] <alexeymelnikov> Should be allowed (list some use cases)
[17:51:45] <alexeymelnikov> Propose text
[17:54:09] <alexeymelnikov> Section Request Status: 3 tuples or pairs?
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[18:00:14] <Aki> We're done! Thank you for attending. See you in IETF68, Prague.
[18:01:27] <Aki> Note, I'll send out an invitation for a jabber session already next week. Thursday, 8am pacific, 17 central european time.
[18:01:32] <Aki> Bye.
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