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[12:17:02] <dmose> should i be hearing audio on channel7 at this point?
[12:17:37] <dmose> the schedule sort of looks like i ought to be hearing eap, since calsify hasn't started yet
[12:18:36] <bernard.desruisseaux> eap ended at 11:30 CST
[12:18:44] <dmose> ah, ok
[12:25:05] --- JonLennox has become available
[12:25:18] --- Hollenbeck has become available
[12:26:00] * Hollenbeck has set the topic to: CALSIFY BOF
[12:36:37] --- cyrus_daboo has become available
[12:38:09] --- simon_at_work_v has become available
[12:38:24] <cyrus_daboo> FYI I am hearing some very faint background noise, so I'm guessing audio is working. We'll know when someone speaks into the mike...
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[12:41:22] --- leg has become available
[12:41:35] <cyrus_daboo> I can hear you Bob!
[12:41:36] <lisaDusseault> Cyrus can you hear Bob testing the mic?
[12:42:39] --- danc has become available
[12:43:23] --- ray has become available
[12:43:46] <DougRoyer> I can not get any sound. It is in 'Rochester' correct?
[12:43:51] --- hildjj has become available
[12:43:54] <danc> (finally connected! I've been struggling with xmpp/jabber all weeek)
[12:44:05] <cyrus_daboo> Yes - channel 7 - its working fine for me.
[12:44:15] <danc> yes, Rochester. but there's nothing happening on the mic just now
[12:44:26] --- JasonKlemow has become available
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[12:44:36] <JonLennox> I'm hearing a rumbling right now from the room, and some background noise of people talking in the background away from the mic.
[12:44:47] <JonLennox> I'll probably have to turn the volume down a lot once things get started.
[12:44:52] <hildjj> for those that want to try gush: http://www.2entwine.com/
[12:45:06] <DougRoyer> Ok, then it is working, I turned up the volume all the way. When they start speaking it may blow out my speakers :-)
[12:45:09] <danc> gush is the one built on flash or somthing, right?
[12:45:10] --- robsiemb has become available
[12:45:18] <hildjj> right. flash and python
[12:45:34] --- JasonKlemow has become available
[12:47:05] * danc finds http://www.ietf.org/ietf/05mar/calsify.txt ... considers putting it in the topic
[12:47:11] --- randy has become available
[12:47:41] <danc> hmm... there was a relevant ID, no? it doesn't seem to be linked from that calsify.txt agenda
[12:47:59] <JonLennox> Also note that the URLs of the slides were just posted to the calsify list.
[12:48:49] <cyrus_daboo> Has anyone tried opening the ppt slides that Bob posted a link to on OS X? Its seems to be crashing PowerPoint...
[12:48:49] <Hollenbeck> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-daboo-calsify-issues-00.txt
[12:49:36] <danc> tx. aka http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-daboo-calsify-issues/
[12:49:48] <danc> (which doesn't go 404 when -01 comes out)
[12:51:18] --- stpeter has become available
[12:53:12] <danc> was there some "ICalendar basic" draft too?
[12:54:27] <cyrus_daboo> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-royer-ical-basic-02.txt
[12:55:20] <danc> Morgan convenes...
[12:55:39] --- resnick has become available
[12:56:02] <danc> tx... aka http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-royer-ical-basic/
[12:56:35] --- tony1athome has become available
[12:56:42] <danc> DanC agrees to take notes
[12:56:51] <dmose> thanks dan
[12:56:59] <JonLennox> Remind them to always use the mic for comments so that those of us on MP3 can hear?
[12:57:13] <lisaDusseault> We will Jon
[12:57:14] <danc> the slides... are they online? pointer?
[12:57:28] <cyrus_daboo> http://staff.washington.edu/rlmorgan/misc/IETF-62-calsify-BOF-intro.sxi http://staff.washington.edu/rlmorgan/misc/IETF-62-calsify-BOF-intro.ppt
[12:57:34] --- tonyhansen has become available
[12:57:38] <danc> blue sheet (attendance) has gone around
[12:57:51] <danc> Morgan reminds all to use the mic for the benefit of the streaming audio audience
[12:57:53] --- xmlscott has become available
[12:58:23] <bernard.desruisseaux> Just curious... how many people in the "physical" room?
[12:58:47] <danc> agenda slide: intro, problem def, possible solutions, next steps/wg charter
[12:58:56] <hildjj> about 35.
[12:58:58] <leg> 30-40 in the room
[12:59:01] --- fenton has become available
[12:59:35] <danc> intro slide... Morgan notes active mailing list (http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/ )
[12:59:36] * stpeter remembers the CALSCH meeting in Vienna -- the 3 of us really bonded
[12:59:56] <danc> Morgan: goal of the day: is there sufficient consensus to proceed with a WG?
[13:00:19] <danc> (is it safe to skip taking notes on things that are on the slides?)
[13:00:40] <hildjj> stpeter: there is an audio stream, as well.
[13:00:47] <danc> Intro #2 slide: other work attempted: iRIP, CAP
[13:00:48] --- Barry Leiba has become available
[13:00:53] --- mike has become available
[13:00:54] <danc> Morgan: that group [which?] closed without completing
[13:00:59] <hildjj> can someone who is listening online point stpeter to the details?
[13:01:09] <dmose> danc: maybe put the slides url in the topic, and then yeah
[13:01:19] <stpeter> I gotta run for a minute, bbiab
[13:01:20] <danc> I'm not aware of a uri for the slides
[13:01:32] <lisaDusseault> Mp3 streaming: http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/
[13:01:35] <cyrus_daboo> again:
[13:01:35] <cyrus_daboo> http://staff.washington.edu/rlmorgan/misc/IETF-62-calsify-BOF-intro.ppt
[13:01:49] <dmose> also, .sxi for staroffice
[13:01:50] <JonLennox> or .sxi for openoffice.
[13:01:54] <danc> logs, for those joining... http://www.xmpp.org/ietf-logs/calsify@ietf.xmpp.org/2005-03-10.html
[13:02:18] <danc> Comment from [who?]: call processing language is another IETF thingy that uses iCalendar
[13:02:30] * JonLennox waves.
[13:02:41] <JonLennox> CPL is my thingie; it's why I'm monitoring here.
[13:02:47] <danc> who=Jonathan Rosenberg, Cisco
[13:03:02] <JonLennox> Good, jdrosen is there.
[13:03:17] <danc> -- slide Intro #3
[13:03:37] --- xmlscott has left
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[13:04:40] <danc> -- slide Why make changes now?
[13:04:54] --- shadow has become available
[13:04:57] <lisaDusseault> JDRosen also explained something interesting, that there are SIP-related technologies that rely on iCalendar
[13:05:06] <danc> slide refers to calconnect http://www.calconnect.org/
[13:05:07] --- shadow has left
[13:05:22] --- dbrashear has become available
[13:05:30] <danc> -- slide Calconnect Consortium
[13:05:41] <JonLennox> CPL (which is mostly used by SIP stuff, but doesn't require it) uses RRULEs to represent recurring events.
[13:05:50] * danc would like a pointer to CPL
[13:06:04] <JonLennox> RFC 3880.
[13:06:17] --- fenton has become available
[13:06:23] <cyrus_daboo> FYI RFC 2739 'Calendar Attributes for vCard and LDAP' also references 2445
[13:06:39] <danc> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3880.html Oct 2004 Call Processing Language (CPL): A Language for User Control of Internet Telephony Services
[13:06:58] <JonLennox> Yep, that's it.
[13:07:06] --- bhoeneis has become available
[13:07:06] <danc> -- slide Technical Committees
[13:07:20] <danc> -- slide Some Specific Issues
[13:07:36] <danc> http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-daboo-calsify-issues/
[13:08:17] <danc> -- slide Calconnect results summary
[13:08:30] --- simon_at_work_v has left: Logged out
[13:09:00] <danc> -- slide Recurrences
[13:09:30] --- simon_at_work_v has become available
[13:10:56] <danc> -- slide Timezones
[13:11:20] <JonLennox> Comment: also Doug Royer's proposal for an official TZ repository.
[13:11:37] <JonLennox> Don't know if that should be in Calsify or somewhere else though.
[13:11:44] <cyrus_daboo> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-royer-timezone-registry-01.txt
[13:11:53] <dmose> it's relevant here
[13:12:09] <danc> (tz repository comment is voiced)
[13:12:27] <cyrus_daboo> CalDAV is interested in having standardised timezones - CalDAV is currently and individual method.
[13:13:24] --- corby has become available
[13:13:55] * danc struggles to parse "is currently and individual method"
[13:14:16] <danc> -- slide Possible Approaches #1
[13:14:24] <lisaDusseault> I think he meant individual draft :)
[13:14:30] <cyrus_daboo> Sorry: 'is currently an individual draft submission' i.e. not part of any WG and I don't think we want to add it as part of any Calsify effort
[13:14:31] <cyrus_daboo> .
[13:14:38] <danc> tx
[13:15:17] <bernard.desruisseaux> Right. CalDAV has no dependency on the Calsify work.
[13:17:01] <dmose> i'll scribe for danc since he's talking: his experience has found that generating test cases from use cases from existing calendar data is useful
[13:17:18] <dmose> he's curious how this interacts with the approaches discussed here
[13:17:40] <DougRoyer> Is he asking for an OFFICIAL test case set?
[13:17:46] <cyrus_daboo> I do have an iCalendar file on my CalDAV server that has all the 2445 recurrence example components in it - Calconnect will make that vailable off their website at some point.
[13:17:52] <dmose> bob says: could be item 0 on "possible approaches #1"
[13:18:02] <JonLennox> An Informational RFC with examples could be useful.
[13:18:08] <dmose> DougRoyer: that's not my understanding, no
[13:18:11] <JonLennox> It's been useful for SIP.
[13:18:14] <danc> DanC: test cases have been useful to deal with interoperatibility issues with RDF/iCalendar stuff. is that different from the approaches considered here? or is it implicit in the approaches you've listed
[13:18:42] <danc> [who?]: we could look at this as IETF draft standard process: those features that we can show working stay, those that don't go.
[13:19:01] <danc> who? Leif Johansen [sp?[
[13:19:29] <danc> Dave Crocker: this looks like a familiar list of issues...
[13:20:02] <danc> ... the goal, and the value of this work, should be very clear. [?]
[13:20:38] <danc> ... so first folks should agree what benefits we're looking for, and then the tasks should flow from that
[13:21:17] <cyrus_daboo> WRT timezones - the issue is whether timezones need to be part of the iCalendar data, or something computed outside of iCalendar by clients.
[13:21:26] <danc> Keith Moore: I'm boggled by the notion that "This has the side-effect of removing the need to specify timezones". You don't know the timezone offset when you schedule an event in the future
[13:22:12] <danc> Nathaniel Borenstein: that's not what we mean by "getting rid of timezones". What we mean is that we can pass them around by reference, rather than by copy [to paraphrase]
[13:22:50] <danc> discussion of whether "just use UTC" is sufficient is curtailed.
[13:23:02] <danc> [mic dies]
[13:23:19] <randy> [mic was brutally murdered]
[13:23:22] <danc> [er.. maybe timezone discussion wasn't curtailed]
[13:23:54] <danc> Lisa: perhaps doing recurrences based on [this sort of] timezone is too hard
[13:24:37] <lisaDusseault> Rohan resuscitated the mic that I droppped :)
[13:25:56] <nsb> I'm not sure that the dropping wasn't my fault.
[13:26:29] <danc> Leif: [x] is only relevant if we're doing redesign. if we're just finishing the draft standard work, it's not
[13:27:44] --- tony1athome has left
[13:27:55] <danc> Morgan: I think there's enough that needs to change that we'd need to go back to proposed
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[13:28:08] <danc> (missed what Keith said, cuz I'm trying to get the floor)
[13:28:23] --- bhoeneis has become available
[13:28:43] <danc> Lisa: one thing we may want to change is the version info that iCalendar doesn't provide
[13:29:37] <DougRoyer> Yes (to better versioning)- AND vendor info - we can only correct for bugs if we know a stable vendor ID for the blob of data we get.
[13:29:54] <dmose> agreed
[13:30:28] <danc> DanC: what _needs_ to change?
[13:30:36] <cyrus_daboo> We need to consider not just static calendars by the dynamic of schduling i.e. iTIP. Handling exceptions in iTIP is a well dcoumented interop nightmare.,
[13:30:45] <danc> ... can't we just put orange cones around the bits that don't work?
[13:31:53] <danc> NatB: a real interop problem is changing an instance of a recurring meeting, across the lotus notes/ms outlook boundary
[13:33:39] <danc> [?]: in an odd case, the pope came to Brazil and daylight savings time changed suddenly. [?] in that case, meetins scheduled in Brazil should work, though interop with places outside Brazil would break
[13:33:48] <JonLennox> Dan: that was Rohan Mahy I think.
[13:34:24] <danc> "handling exceptsion in iTIP" ... care to elaborate, please?
[13:34:28] --- lisaDusseault has left
[13:34:52] <DougRoyer> MS has done LOTS better in their 2003 releases.
[13:34:53] <danc> Keith: that two vendors don't interoperate... does that mean the spec is broken?
[13:35:17] <danc> Leif: the IETF bar for draft standard is two interoperable implementations
[13:35:50] <danc> -- slide Possible Approaches #2
[13:35:52] --- lisaDusseault has become available
[13:35:56] <cyrus_daboo> 'iTip exceptions' - how do you reschdule one instance of a recurring meeting containing multiple ATTENDEEs? Do you send just the exception, do you send a completely new set of components...
[13:36:21] <lisaDusseault> I wish you were here in person, Bernard
[13:36:38] <lisaDusseault> you have a convincing set of examples about the general brokenness of recurrances, don't you?
[13:36:59] <lisaDusseault> since Keith asked if the interop problems weren't just major vendors being stupid
[13:37:15] <DougRoyer> Sending an entire replacement with the same UID, increment SEQ seems to work with most.
[13:37:17] <danc> (my .ppt viewer went kerflewey. darn)
[13:37:22] <bernard.desruisseaux> Actually, I don't think recurrence rules are that broken... I think that better specification is needed though
[13:37:26] <danc> -- slide Possible Approaches #3
[13:37:41] <JonLennox> I have a bunch of annoying corner-case examples.
[13:38:02] <JonLennox> Mostly having to do with interactions with jump-forward/jump-backward periods.
[13:39:10] <danc> [oops; he said his name and I missed it]: having lots of experience with syntax wars, I don't see much value. You could spend a lot of time and not improve much, by looking at XML
[13:39:17] <mike> Syntax issues should be trivial once the domain is properly spec'd and understood
[13:39:19] <JonLennox> Dan: Rohan Mahy.
[13:39:21] <cyrus_daboo> That was Rohan again...
[13:39:58] <danc> Keith Moore: there's a mistaken impression that XML tools are going to solve problems, but they're not
[13:40:18] <resnick> Someone whack Rohan and tell him that he always says his name too quickly and nobody can understand him.
[13:40:25] <danc> [area director; missed his name]: either (1) keep RFC2441 syntax and transform...
[13:40:25] <resnick> ;)
[13:40:39] <Barry Leiba> Patrik Faltstrom
[13:40:41] <fenton> AD=Patrik Faltstrom
[13:40:50] <danc> ... or (2) completely scrap 2445 and start again
[13:40:55] <resnick> Patrik F‰ltstrˆm, and he's not an AD, he's an IAB member.
[13:41:11] <cyrus_daboo> FYI there is already a proposed XML mapping:
[13:41:12] <cyrus_daboo> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hare-xcalendar-02.txt
[13:41:32] <danc> Lisa: I wrote a draft, went thru the excercise of converting to/from XML ... convinced myself it's doable...
[13:41:55] <randy> Pete--are you listening remotely?
[13:42:10] <danc> (my work on icalendar to XML/RDF... http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/fromIcal.py ... I have code going the other way too)
[13:42:16] <DougRoyer> I agree - an XML representation of calendar is going to happen, and not that hard
[13:42:57] <danc> ... folks that only want an XML parser might want it... there are also XML-based vcards flying around in jabber...
[13:43:31] <DougRoyer> vCard and iCalendar are of the same format, so the same conversion rules can apply
[13:43:51] <danc> DanC: pls take 2445 to draft standard; converting to XML is fun work, but it's different work
[13:43:57] <JonLennox> Semantics are always harder than syntax; it's semantics where iCalendar is weak.
[13:44:27] <danc> Crocker: doing the conversion in parallel [outside this work] seems best
[13:44:40] <DougRoyer> I think mostly because people confuse pushing an object to the net is the same as METHOD:PUBLISH
[13:44:52] <danc> jr: CPL specifies a mapping from iCalendar to XML
[13:44:57] <cyrus_daboo> Agreed - we can almost use any syntax iCal, XML, etc - the semantics are what we need to get right.
[13:44:59] <danc> RFC3880
[13:45:02] <JonLennox> CPL's subset isn't really appropriate for full iCalendar, though.
[13:45:13] <JonLennox> It's just RRULEs.
[13:45:56] <danc> Rohan Mahy: transform to XML is not a bad idea; just don't let it interfere with this work
[13:45:59] <danc> Moor: [missed]
[13:46:14] <mike> ABNF defines the problem domain in 2445 et al. You can drop your syntax on top of that (in separate drafts even).
[13:46:16] <JonLennox> As CPL author, I don't care if I have to do a mechanical transformations from some other format than RFC 2445.
[13:46:35] <danc> Leif: clarification of RFC2445 could have impact on CPL. [several: true...]
[13:46:50] <danc> jr: we had nightmares with recurrence...
[13:47:29] <danc> jr: did we write down the problems? perhaps... Jonathan lennox did most of the work...
[13:47:55] <danc> jr: [this part of?] CPL isn't in _wide_ use, but I've seen some deployment, e.g. at vonage
[13:48:03] <danc> -- slide What's next
[13:48:16] <JonLennox> I've not written down a specific document. Some of it's on the ietf-calendar list archive, some on the iptel list archive.
[13:48:18] <danc> (my offer was to take real-time notes, btw, not to edit them afterward)
[13:48:21] <JonLennox> Some in my head.
[13:49:16] <danc> Moore: I'm not offering to chair the WG.
[13:49:27] <danc> Moore: note limited availability of Ted H, AD
[13:49:44] <dmose> isn't it Bob that was saying that stuff?
[13:49:44] <DougRoyer> Agenda item (too late?) IANA registration of 2445 object. 2445 called out for it, it has not yet been done.
[13:50:09] <danc> http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/2005-February/thread.html
[13:50:15] <danc> er... http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/
[13:51:03] <danc> (oops... s/Moore/Morgan/ as appropriate ;-)
[13:51:17] <stpeter> heh
[13:51:19] <danc> Morgan edits a list of goals...
[13:51:34] <stpeter> danc: you're doing a great job!
[13:51:48] <danc> NB: figuring out what subset of iCal works now, pushing it to DRAFT standard
[13:51:53] <danc> (hear hear)
[13:52:23] <JonLennox> If it's cleanly subsettable...you can't easily pull off the fuzzy corner cases of RRULE from the main parts that everyone agrees on.
[13:52:27] <danc> RohanM: document what's currently unsatisfactory
[13:52:46] <mike> Core that works now and core that we need are not necessarily congruent.
[13:52:47] <danc> Lisa: consider upgrade and version problems
[13:53:29] <danc> Lisa: ... so that, e.g., sending invitations isn't completely stuck at lowest-common-demoninator
[13:53:55] <danc> ... e.g. negotiation in CalDAV
[13:54:32] <danc> RohanM: in email, you can use multipart/alternative for that.
[13:55:08] <danc> Leigh: limit what we add to what is required by IETF process, i.e. Internationalization
[13:55:26] <danc> ... in order to avoid new interoperability problems
[13:55:46] --- resnick has left: Disconnected
[13:55:53] --- resnick has become available
[13:56:42] <danc> [not clear on this point yet... Morgan hasn't written anything either...]
[13:56:55] <JonLennox> Who was talking? Was that Chris Newman?
[13:57:16] <leg> chris was the one who proposed the don't-take-out-important-stuff
[13:57:19] <danc> Lisa: I agree with Chris, but...
[13:58:08] <danc> (I hear two different bits of work)
[13:58:12] <danc> (or 3)
[13:58:35] <DougRoyer> XML transform - yes. CALSIFY - no
[13:58:43] <JonLennox> Agreed.
[13:58:49] <JonLennox> Should it be in calendar itself?
[13:58:56] <danc> Lisa polls for support on calisfy taking on XML transform
[13:58:59] <bernard.desruisseaux> XML is out of scope for Calsify
[13:59:00] <JonLennox> It's not in CPL. CPL just does RRULE.
[13:59:20] <JonLennox> Please point that out to the room?
[13:59:57] --- randy has left: Disconnected
[14:00:39] <JonLennox> Could it be in the original calendar group? Or has that been shut down now?
[14:00:48] <danc> [?]: is this XML xform work hard?
[14:00:51] <nsb> It is shut down.
[14:01:17] <DougRoyer> no its not hard is you go 1:1 bi-directional transform.
[14:01:20] <danc> Lisa: XML produced by a transform, as opposed to designed as XML, is going to be ugly, and it won't get support as an individual submission.
[14:01:25] <DougRoyer> ^is^if
[14:01:46] <leg> that argument seems to mean that the individual submission process is kinda broken, but if it's true it's true.
[14:01:55] --- hta has become available
[14:02:30] <danc> ... discussion of whether CPL is deployed so much that it's hard to change...
[14:03:13] <danc> jr: the group that did CPL is trying to close down, so that's not a center of expertise for iCalendar/XML work
[14:03:15] <cyrus_daboo> Suggested work item for XML: Lisa and Time Hare get together and write a draft of that based on each of their own work to date.
[14:03:19] <lisaDusseault> StPeter you still there?
[14:03:40] <lisaDusseault> what do you think about doing it as a transform process rather than a from-scratch XML format?
[14:03:50] <danc> Morgan: there's a lot of web-based XML calendaring stuff out there, but it doesn't seem in scope
[14:04:28] <danc> lisa, I've got an XML<->.ics design and code.
[14:04:34] <lisaDusseault> cool
[14:04:38] <DougRoyer> Its the XML 'addition' that are being talked about now that are the objection. At that point you have two standards.
[14:04:42] <lisaDusseault> Dan are you volunteering to write a draft too?
[14:04:43] <lisaDusseault> :)
[14:05:29] <danc> well, sorta, lisa... http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/report1173.html is my work so far. I'm having trouble finding time to work on it
[14:06:01] <danc> (oops; I'm supposed to be taking notes, aren't I?)
[14:06:08] <DougRoyer> Lisa: (was nice to hear your voice), Do you have a specific proposal for version and upgrade control?
[14:06:57] <JonLennox> I don't think the RFC 2444 *syntax* needs much in the way of changing, which would mean that a syntactic translation would be doable in parallel.
[14:07:09] <JonLennox> The condition needs consensus, though.
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[14:08:01] <JonLennox> Can whoever is talking right now use the mic?
[14:08:02] <lisaDusseault> Doug: I've seen a few credible alternatives. None of them are perfect and lovely in all respects, which is part of why I think a WG needs to consider the alternatives rather than somebody do this individually.
[14:08:41] <DougRoyer> thanks, I have no idea how, but I like the idea :-)
[14:08:42] <cyrus_daboo> Since vCard and iCal are so close in syntax, wouldn't we want an XML transform that will work with both? There would be a big benefit in that IHMO.
[14:09:01] <DougRoyer> vCard/iCal <-> XML - yes.
[14:09:29] <lisaDusseault> yes
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[14:10:00] <danc> Keith suggested that perhaps the WG should be chartered to consider whether or not to the XML transform. DanC disagreed. [so much that he had a hard time writing down what Keith said]
[14:10:02] <DougRoyer> There are two issues with version control, format of the data (VERSION does that now) and content control.
[14:10:04] <hildjj> except if you open up the vcard can of worms, there's lots of changes that are needed.
[14:10:17] <cyrus_daboo> hand up from me...
[14:10:21] <DougRoyer> up
[14:10:26] <cyrus_daboo> if I can participate remotely
[14:10:31] <danc> volunteers for charter writing: Lisa, Leif, Nathaniel, DanC [sorta], ...
[14:10:33] <danc> ... Morgan...
[14:10:45] <bernard.desruisseaux> Willing to help with the charter
[14:10:58] <resnick> Cyrus: I believe the appropriate jabber way is "/me raises his hand"
[14:11:06] <resnick> ;)
[14:11:10] <danc> Lisa offers to do a 1st draft charter
[14:11:18] <nsb> Hooray for Lisa
[14:12:36] <DougRoyer> The IANA registration for 2445 still is UN-DONE
[14:13:03] <DougRoyer> THat means we can not register new / changed properties
[14:14:45] <DougRoyer> It keeps people from stepping on each other
[14:15:25] <danc> Lisa: perhaps new properties can just be introduced by other documents?
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[14:15:48] <danc> Lisa: should IANA work be another goal?
[14:16:00] <DougRoyer> That is one way, but it also allows for change (FIX) control
[14:16:03] <danc> Morgan: or more generally: extension work
[14:16:42] <danc> ....
[14:16:58] <danc> Morgan: perhaps it's premature to call for support in a WG, since we don't have a charter... Mr. AD?
[14:17:39] <danc> AD [is that Freed?]: we've just spent 90 minutes without anyone saying this shouldn't happen. So the next step is to put your draft together...
[14:17:52] <danc> Morgan: is there a chance of having a WG before the next IETF?
[14:17:57] <cyrus_daboo> No - Scott Hollenbeck is AD
[14:18:06] <danc> AD: expect a month turn around from 1st draft charter to [which?]
[14:18:11] <DougRoyer> Tell Scott his email bounces - no such host
[14:18:25] <resnick> Ned is back here sitting next to me.
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[14:18:43] <Barry Leiba> Doug: Scott asks what address you'rre using.
[14:18:48] <resnick> (And I'm here sitting next to Dave Crocker)
[14:18:54] <danc> ah. got it. tx.
[14:19:00] <DougRoyer> The one on the IETF pages
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[14:19:09] <DougRoyer> something like 428jetnet ...
[14:19:19] <Hollenbeck> It's working fine for quite a few other people.
[14:19:30] <Hollenbeck> The one you want is sah@428cobrajet.net
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[14:20:30] <DougRoyer> ok - thanks, must have been a DNS hickup
[14:20:42] <JonLennox> Are things definitely done there?
[14:20:44] <DougRoyer> it pings now
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[14:20:57] <stpeter> jonlennox: looks like it
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[14:21:04] * JonLennox wishes the "hallway" chatroom had cookies.
[14:21:09] <stpeter> ?
[14:21:12] <stpeter> how so?
[14:21:13] <lisaDusseault> Cyrus and Doug, can you stay in the room?
[14:21:19] <DougRoyer> yes
[14:21:23] <JonLennox> The actual IETF hallway has cookies during the 3-3:30 break.
[14:21:34] <cyrus_daboo> Yes - I did try a private chat with you but your client refuses to talk to me :-(
[14:21:35] <stpeter> oh, heh, *that* kind of cookie
[14:21:59] <lisaDusseault> we'll see if it's feasible to keep you inthe loop
[14:22:00] <cyrus_daboo> bernard volunteered too.....
[14:22:28] <bernard.desruisseaux> Yes, I'd like to contribute to the charter
[14:22:51] * JonLennox will send something to the list about what CPL a) does, and b) needs from iCalendar.
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[14:50:16] <lisaDusseault> We're having a terrible time even writing anything down for the charter.
[14:50:27] <lisaDusseault> There are 8 people sitting all right around me and arguing :)
[14:50:40] <DougRoyer> Mic still open - Sounds fun!
[14:50:41] <lisaDusseault> Larry doubts that there are any serious iCalendar interop problems.
[14:56:35] <cyrus_daboo> TZs are important even after creating a meeting - the TZ info has to be preserved so that if the event is edited, the time can be adjusted in the original TZ.
[15:00:47] <cyrus_daboo> As Nathaniel says, we can send times in UTC with a TZHINT paramater indicating what the expected timezone is.
[15:00:56] <DougRoyer> yes
[15:01:09] <hta> cyrus: how is that different from localtime + timezone?
[15:01:28] <hta> (except for having to look up both timezones before comparing times, that is)
[15:02:54] <cyrus_daboo> All it does is simplify the 'calculations' that you need to do on date-times.
[15:03:00] <cyrus_daboo> Baby due in 3 weeks...
[15:03:02] <DougRoyer> locatime is not in UTC or related to a time zone
[15:05:08] <hta> sorry; I was thinking "15:11 in US:CET" as a localtime. had forgotten the proper calsch term.
[15:06:13] <cyrus_daboo> Everyone says babies have their own internal clocks so I would like to propose an 'INFANT-TIME' CALSACLE value in addition to GREGORIAN!!
[15:12:53] <lisaDusseault> thx Cyrus Nathanial laughed when I read that :)
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