IETF
Babel
babel@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, November 16, 2017< ^ >
Barbara Stark has set the subject to: IETF 96 babel WG
Room Configuration
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[10:00:57] meetecho joins the room
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[10:07:59] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Does anyone know how to choose the right microphone in meetecho?
[10:08:31] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> Your browser should ask you which mic to use when it requests permission
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[10:18:44] <mellon> David Schinazi speaking
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[10:30:41] DavidSchinazi has set the subject to: IETF 100 babel WG
[10:33:45] Denis Ovsienko joins the room
[10:36:51] sftcd joins the room
[10:38:34] <sftcd> is that DTLS with certs or PSKs?
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[10:38:57] <DavidSchinazi> Would you like that asked at the mic?
[10:39:09] <mellon> Certs don’t really make sense.
[10:39:15] <sftcd> no I'm in the room and can ask, just thought someone might know
[10:39:19] <mellon> But I suppose maybe with RPKI—I don’t know much about RPKI.
[10:39:27] <mellon> We’ve been talking about using bare keys.
[10:39:33] <sftcd> RPKI, nah, don't go there
[10:39:49] <mellon> RPKI is awesome!
[10:39:50] <sftcd> bare keys and tofu could work
[10:40:04] <mellon> You missed our conversation on Wednesday.
[10:40:07] <DavidSchinazi> In my mind the trust model would depend on the use-case
[10:40:16] <sftcd> I did yeah sorry
[10:40:44] <mellon> What we concluded there is that we should have a keying ritual, and maybe a TOFU-esque fallback.
[10:40:59] <mellon> But we’re not sure that the TOFU-esque fallback is at all useful.
[10:41:09] <sftcd> I'm skeptical that a ritual can be defined that'll work in enough cases tbh, but great if it did
[10:41:17] <DavidSchinazi> Note that was for the homenet use case
[10:41:29] <mellon> I think if you are willing to insist on the user having a phone with a camera, it’s not hard.
[10:41:31] <mellon> Otherwise it’s hard.
[10:41:58] <sftcd> so QR codes I guess?
[10:42:10] <mellon> yup.
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[10:43:18] <sftcd> for the tofu stuff I guess factory-reset is the worst thing or are there other badnesses?
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[10:43:44] <mellon> The problem with tofu is that it’s not clear that it prevents any attacks.
[10:43:54] <mellon> In which case might as well not bother.
[10:44:11] <mellon> Juliusz, can you mute?
[10:44:59] <mellon> Oh, that’s David at the mic.
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[10:47:28] <Antonin Décimo> No sure if there are DTLS 1.3 implementations out yet
[10:47:43] <Antonin Décimo> Does OpenSSL have it ?
[10:47:50] <Denis Ovsienko> is there a virtual queue? because I don't see it in my browser at this time.
[10:48:04] mellon joins the room
[10:48:24] <mellon> I think when I went looking for it it wasn’t quite ready for prime time yet.
[10:48:36] <mellon> But that was ~4 months ago.
[10:48:39] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> Denis: There's a button in the top-right corner to show the queue, and in the top-left corner you can raise you hand
[10:49:38] <Denis Ovsienko> yes, there's normally a button
[10:50:05] <Denis Ovsienko> oh, I managed to raise my hand
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[10:50:30] <mellon> Of course there’s no way to actually shove your way into the mic line.
[10:51:04] <meetecho> Denis Ovsienko: did you cancel your raised hand on purpose?
[10:51:16] <Denis Ovsienko> would you mind if I feed my input into chat?
[10:51:21] <DavidSchinazi> Go ahead
[10:51:32] <Denis Ovsienko> because meetecho page keeps crashing
[10:51:34] <mellon> The thing that’s making me say what I’ve been saying is that Juliusz said that DTLS was designed to work with connected sockets, and that doesn’t ring true based on my recollection of what I learned when I was looking at DTLS 1.3.
[10:53:05] <Denis Ovsienko> 1. this is a right discussion but what we are discussing is more or less what we were discussing 1.5 years ago
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[10:55:00] <Denis Ovsienko> 2. interoperability is a goal, and Standards Track is how it is achieved so I am afraid saying "let's have as much flexibility as possible now and sort things out later" isn't going to result in good deliverables
[10:55:51] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Ted, the implementation Antonin was using, not DTLS itself.
[10:55:55] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Sorry if not clear.
[10:55:57] <Denis Ovsienko> this concerns not only security but the overall process
[10:56:02] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Denis 1, yes.
[10:56:04] <mellon> Ah.
[10:56:19] <Juliusz Chroboczek> And I understand you're frustrated.
[10:56:26] <mellon> ?
[10:56:53] <Juliusz Chroboczek> I understand Denis is frustrated, he's been working on getting us to do security for 2 years.
[10:57:01] <mellon> Ah, ok.
[10:57:18] <akatlas> It's a common frustration :-( for those doing similar work in other WGs too - sadly.
[10:57:35] <mellon> It’s hard to get anybody excited about it.   Dunno why, it’s a fascinating topic.
[10:57:55] <Denis Ovsienko> 3. DTLS is in scope as much as an I-D we can discuss or any other comprehensible document
[10:58:07] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> To be fair, though, 2 years is only 0.2 decades; not too long in IETF time ;)
[10:58:30] <Denis Ovsienko> previously I have heard on many occasions about "Stenberg" security and asked if I can study the document, and that never happened
[10:59:10] <mellon> Hey, I got a draft published in <2 years recently!
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[11:00:16] <Denis Ovsienko> sorry if my input is out of phase, the video and the audio broke off a while ago
[11:00:33] <mellon> Seems like Juliusz still has video and audio.
[11:00:50] <Denis Ovsienko> I can only see a frozen slide from Sandy talk and Juliusz's cam
[11:01:05] <mellon> Ah, okay.
[11:02:07] <Denis Ovsienko> let me restart the browser
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[11:03:49] <Denis Ovsienko> git video and audio, just in time
[11:04:04] <akatlas> wrapping it up....
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[11:04:22] <akatlas> Juliusz - Tony suggests you should read your Aristotle.  
[11:04:34] <akatlas> I have no opinion ;-0
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