IETF
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Friday, March 25, 2022< ^ >
Jonathan Lennox has set the subject to: IETF AVTCore Working Group
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[08:46:54] <Jonathan Lennox_web_359> Meetecho: we have slides in the datatracker but I'm not seeing them here
[08:47:14] <Meetecho> Jonathan: just a sec
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[08:47:59] <Meetecho> There's just a single slide deck, correct?
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[08:48:24] <Meetecho> I've just imported the one I see
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[08:49:17] <Jonathan Lennox_web_359> Yes, we're using a single unified slide deck. Thanks!
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[09:07:41] <Murray Kucherawy_web_692> draft-ietf-avtext-framemarking is now in "AD Evaluation".
[09:08:06] <Murray Kucherawy_web_692> I just lost audio
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[09:08:41] <Ted Hardie_web_872> Murray, did audio come back?
[09:08:46] <Murray Kucherawy_web_692> No
[09:08:50] <Murray Kucherawy_web_692> Going to try reconnecting
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[09:10:24] <Murray Kucherawy_web_519> No good.  Audio is fine locally (e.g., playing something on YouTube).
[09:11:01] <Meetecho> Murray, can you see if refreshing the page helps?
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[09:11:49] <Murray Kucherawy_web_258> I did once and it didn't help, but it's fine after a second refresh.
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[09:16:03] <Sergio Garcia Murillo_web_918> where would that "concurrent CC algorithms" work be done? seems the efforts are spread in different groups
[09:17:59] <Jonathan Lennox_web_359> As an individual, I'd suggest probably starting in ICCRG?
[09:18:30] <Colin Perkins_web_581> ICCRG will be you useful feedback; it won't produce something that can be a standard quickly
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[09:21:53] <Roni Even_web_850> about congestion how about transport level one like https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pan-tsvwg-hpccplus-02
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[09:26:05] <Mo Zanaty_web_427> +1 Colin, ICCRG will tell you what you did wrong, and what others have already tried, but not converge quickly on any deployable solution.
[09:26:23] <Roni Even_web_850> there is https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-miao-iccrg-hpccplus in iccrg
[09:27:17] <Spencer Dawkins_web_267> @Colin, when I'm speaking in AVTCORE, could you make your comment about getting new congestion controller quickly? I'd LOVEfor us to talk about that in a meeting ...
[09:27:51] <Colin Perkins_web_581> HPCC++ needs link changes, IIRC, so may not be the easiest to deploy wide area
[09:28:31] <Colin Perkins_web_581> Happy to try to remember
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[09:32:01] <Roni Even_web_850> there wa s also a side meeting about 802.1 congestion control https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rdma-cc-interest/
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[09:34:26] <Richard Barnes_web_323> SHALL - the most officious part of RFC 2119
[09:34:36] <Ted Hardie_web_872> FYI, I sent a request for access to  "Secure Communication Interoperability Protocol (SCIP) over Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP)" ncia.cis3@ncia.nato.int and never got a reply.  So I assume that any work on this should proceed with the understanding that the actual spec will  not be available.  At a minimum, that would need to be called it in last call.
[09:34:47] <Roni Even_web_850> it is more about data centers
[09:35:14] <Ted Hardie_web_872> If others did get access, I will withdraw that comment, of course; it's possible that mine was dropped for some specific reasons.
[09:39:02] <Murray Kucherawy_web_258> Non-availability of references has been a problem for the IESG in the past, so I agree with Ted.  We're also looking at reviewing and revising the BCPs to provide guidance about this.
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[09:46:58] <Roni Even_web_866> agree with Cullen.  we had such black box encryption in the circuit switch video conferencing
[09:49:06] <Ted Hardie_web_987> Spec unavailability being called out similar to a downref, but it is not exactly the same.  That's not blocking.
[09:49:15] <Richard Barnes_web_323> All I meant was that there is a section in the media type registration called "Published specification" that cites NSA specs, which it sounds like are not actually published.
[09:50:14] <Ted Hardie_web_987> So when I requested them, they were not delivered.
[09:50:39] <Murray Kucherawy_web_258> It's easier, at least, if they're informative references.  If they're normative and unavailable, reviewers don't have any way to check that their use is correct.
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[09:54:55] <Lucas Pardue_web_506> I think you probably need to reference the QUIC bit grease sped in 7983bis
[09:56:20] <Ted Hardie_web_987> I think Lucas's point is the right; v2 is a greasing release.
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[09:56:52] <Murray Kucherawy_web_258> Makes sense there's a QUIC v2, given how old QUIC is.
[09:57:36] <Lucas Pardue_web_506> specifically https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-bit-grease-02
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[09:57:55] <Lucas Pardue_web_506> The second-to-most significant bit of the first byte in every QUIC
   packet is defined as having a fixed value in QUIC version 1 [QUIC].
   The purpose of having a fixed value is to allow intermediaries and
   endpoints to efficiently distinguish between QUIC and other
   protocols; see [DEMUX] for a description of a scheme that QUIC can
   integrate with as a result.  As this bit effectively identifies a
   packet as QUIC, it is sometimes referred to as the "QUIC Bit".
[09:58:11] <Jonathan Lennox_web_559> Lucas, do you want to speak at the mic, and/or have me relay that?
[09:58:37] <Lucas Pardue_web_506> please relay
[09:59:26] <Lucas Pardue_web_506> yes that would be good enough
[09:59:33] <Magnus Westerlund_web_173> And the version 2 spec is this one: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-v2/
[09:59:38] <Lucas Pardue_web_506> don't shoot yourself with it :)
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[10:02:21] <Colin Perkins_web_581> We should add the references to quic-v2 and quic-bit-grease
[10:03:06] <Cullen Jennings_web_501> +1
[10:04:12] <Ted Hardie_web_987> https://github.com/SpencerDawkins/sdp-rtp-quic-issues/issues to make the slide url clickable.
[10:06:13] <Benson Muite_web_957> :100:
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[10:17:04] <Colin Perkins_web_581> +1 to Cullen (on all aspects)
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[10:17:45] <Richard Barnes_web_323> QAVPF
[10:18:49] <Cullen Jennings_web_501> I like to point out that if all you want is the payload type, what you really want is that not to be a dynamic number but instead just be an IANA registry with 16 bits for the PayloadType
[10:19:05] <Colin Perkins_web_581> RTP -> RTQ ?
[10:19:23] <Cullen Jennings_web_501> RTQ == MoQ ???
[10:19:28] <Ted Hardie_web_987> Meanwhile, MoQ is talking about multicase models, so you may get all of that back in a new form.
[10:19:40] <Ted Hardie_web_987> s/multicase/multicast/
[10:19:41] <Colin Perkins_web_581> @cullen: or use the media type name directly
[10:19:52] <Cullen Jennings_web_501> an SFU is application level multicast in RTP :-)
[10:20:00] <Roni Even_web_866> to stephan comment like RFC4571 rtp over tcp
[10:20:12] <Stephan Wenger_web_543> indeed.
[10:21:44] <Cullen Jennings_web_501> @colin - if we do string names, someone is going to make me change them to unicode and then I will have no clue how to compare them :-)
[10:22:45] <Jonathan Lennox_web_559> We've been doing media type comparisons for http forever so hopefully this isn't so much harder
[10:23:16] <Colin Perkins_web_581> Content-type: video/:film_projector:
[10:23:26] <Cullen Jennings_web_501> I'm sold  
[10:23:41] <Joerg Ott_web_192> It's active
[10:24:22] <Joerg Ott_web_192> this is just so we know what we talking about
[10:24:38] <Joerg Ott_web_192> Happy to, this is the plan anywaty
[10:25:05] <Joerg Ott_web_192> not yet :-)
[10:26:42] <Roni Even_web_866> there is echo when cullen speaks
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[10:27:15] <Roni Even_web_866> no echo cancellation :smiley:
[10:27:33] <Suhas Nandakumar_web_768> @roni .. we use the echo as a RTX mechanism
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[10:28:18] <Giles Heron_web_384> LOL @Suhas
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[10:28:59] <Richard Barnes_web_323> @jonathan echo is back
[10:29:27] <Jonathan Lennox_web_559> It's not my laptop - Meetecho can you take a look?
[10:29:49] <Lucas Pardue_web_506> the hand bone's connected to the ... MBONE
[10:29:50] <Richard Barnes_web_323> is it possible to just mute the room?
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[10:30:04] <rohan> +1 on muting the room
[10:30:16] <Jonathan Lennox_web_559> Not in my controls but possibly in meetecho's
[10:30:17] <Meetecho> Heading there
[10:30:38] <Murray Kucherawy_web_258> Darth Jennings
[10:30:41] <Joerg Ott_web_192> but Cullen sounds nicely mystic this way
[10:36:05] <Stephan Wenger_web_543> @Cullen: AOM may also be interested if you don't want to go to MPEG
[10:36:44] <Cullen Jennings_web_501> oh interesting - I did not realize that. thanks
[10:39:00] <Hang Shi_web_362> AOM stands for Alliance for Open Media?
[10:40:03] <Roni Even_web_866> I am not sure if it is related but  for H.323 we used rtp for FECC regitering a media subtype in rfc4573.
[10:40:22] <Stephan Wenger_web_543> @Hang SHi: yes
[10:40:28] <Rohan Mahy_web_941> To Jonathan's comment, this is no different than what we did in geopriv, where IETF invited domain experts
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[10:44:34] <Roni Even_web_866> +1 to MO and Bernard
[10:45:20] <Hang Shi_web_362> Is this related to webtransport? If webtransport can transmit any TLV in the datagram, do we still map it to RTP?
[10:45:27] <Suhas Nandakumar_web_768> +1 on time synchronization with RTP
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[10:45:30] <Rohan Mahy_web_941> Bernard said exactly what I was going to say
[10:45:38] <Richard Barnes_web_323> even QUIC is not quick
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[10:45:47] <Spencer Dawkins_web_267> It does sound like we need to reopen RTCWeb and recharter it as the IETF media complaint department ... :grin:
[10:45:52] <Ted Hardie_web_987> Dirty, on the other hand...
[10:46:26] <Hang Shi_web_362> If we map it to the RTP then webtransport is widely support, do we need to do game state over RTP over webtransport over HTTP/3 over QUIC?
[10:46:49] <Ted Hardie_web_987> @Spencer  RTCWeb is actually currently open, and as one of its current chairs: No, thanks.
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[10:48:02] <Sergio Garcia Murillo_web_918> have we given up trying to synchronize dc messages with rtp timestamps?
[10:48:16] <Roni Even_web_866> For cullen sake not like CLUE
[10:49:31] <Richard Barnes_web_323> TLV-over-RTP
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[10:50:31] <Sergio Garcia Murillo_web_918> RTMP SharedObject over RTP (just partially joking)
[10:50:41] <Pete Resnick_web_625> +1 Suhas
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[10:51:21] <Colin Perkins_web_581> This seems a good fit for the current AVT charter, to me
[10:51:26] <Pete Resnick_web_625> Agree it's within  charter.
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[10:53:30] <Magnus Westerlund_web_173> I think the new format part is border line but you can go either way. So lets do it. But it is this part of the charter we are talking about:
[10:53:31] <Magnus Westerlund_web_173> 3. To specify and maintain payload formats for use with RTP. The working
group will develop RTP payload formats for new media codecs, review and
revise existing payload formats to advance those that are especially
useful to Internet Standard, and declare others Historic. The group will
follow the guidelines established in "Guidelines for Writers of RTP
Payload Format Specifications" [BCP 36] and "How to Write an RTP Payload
Format" (RFC 8088), and is responsible for maintaining those guidelines.
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[10:55:07] <Simon Romano_web_807> This is a nice proposal. I'd love to contribute. Thanks @Cullen for bringing this to the table.
[10:55:43] <Hang Shi_web_362> Agree. This work fits in the charter.
[10:56:35] <Giles Heron_web_384> I've read it
[10:56:36] <Suhas Nandakumar_web_768> +1 on read the draft
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[10:57:48] <Roni Even_web_866> when we hear about games we are interested :smiley:
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[10:59:40] <Rohan Mahy_web_941> so long and thanks for all the fish!
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[10:59:48] <Richard Barnes_web_323> i would be interested in a short tags call
[10:59:56] <Cullen Jennings_web_501> https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/477.pdf
[11:00:10] <Cullen Jennings_web_501> Paper by Magnus and Mattsson
[11:00:17] <Suhas Nandakumar_web_768> +1 on short tags call
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[11:01:04] <Cullen Jennings_web_501> Thank you everyone for input on game moves
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