IETF
appsawg@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, July 20, 2015< ^ >
cm-msk has set the subject to: Applications Area Working Group
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
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[07:04:18] resnick is jabber scribing
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[07:04:33] <resnick> Murray giving intro.
[07:04:36] Scott Hollenbeck joins the room
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[07:04:52] <resnick> People are noting well.
[07:04:55] Yoshiro Yoneya joins the room
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[07:05:31] resnick is evidently doing minutes as well
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[07:06:08] <resnick> Recent RFCs published: 7505, 7565, 7578, 7595
[07:06:25] <resnick> rfc7001bis in the RFC Editor queue
[07:06:29] Cullen Jennings joins the room
[07:06:49] <resnick> markdown documents in IESG followup (i18n, etc, needs to be resolved.
[07:07:20] <resnick> 3 docs in development: -file-scheme, -http-problem, -mdn-3798bis
[07:07:36] <resnick> MNot speaks to -http-problem.
[07:08:00] <resnick> Got lots of feedback from W3C TAG. Still need to deal with extensibility.
[07:08:30] Jim Galvin joins the room
[07:08:50] <resnick> Deciding on whether to add an extension bucket to the JSON, or just bump the media type when you want to extend. Some favor for the latter.
[07:08:55] <resnick> Feedback.
[07:09:30] <resnick> Martin Thomson: Sounds fine, but people are going to do extensions without bumping media type, so not a big deal.
[07:09:54] <resnick> (Bucket is like “x-“, which is bad)
[07:10:44] <resnick> No other comments. Sounds like no need to bring it back to the WG. New version forthcoming.
[07:10:45] Kurt joins the room
[07:11:27] <resnick> Alexey on -mdn-3798bis: Still working on grammar a bit. Still need to work through open issues.
[07:11:58] <resnick> Murray on -file-scheme: Sounds like one more round of feedback, then WGLC.
[07:12:14] <John Klensin> Speakers are not identifiying themselves.
[07:12:24] Frederico A C Neves leaves the room
[07:12:33] <ajsaf@jabber.org> This is Barry speaking
[07:12:34] <resnick> Barry on rechartering APPSAWG:
[07:12:55] <John Klensin> And the pink box is off camera!
[07:13:03] <resnick> heh.
[07:13:12] <ajsaf@jabber.org> You're missing out on Barry's pink shirt, then
[07:13:34] Frederico A C Neves joins the room
[07:13:38] <John Klensin> Got a glmipse of it when he switched mics
[07:13:48] wseltzer joins the room
[07:13:49] kaorumaeda joins the room
[07:13:50] <resnick> Looking to recharter APPSAWG to act more like DISPATCH; less handling of documents.
[07:14:31] <resnick> Finding homes for documents instead of handling documents on its own (with a few easy exceptions).
[07:15:21] <resnick> The ADs are still figuring out whether to do a ART-wide area WG.
[07:16:25] <resnick> Dave Crocker: This was supposed to be a WG for documents that can’t find homes. What changed?
[07:17:21] <resnick> Barry: We’ve gotten better about spinning up new WGs quickly, so that’s less of an issue. But there’s also worries about review here (both things not getting airtime, and getting buried in noise).
[07:17:40] <resnick> Alissa: Also possible for the decision for AD-shepherded document.
[07:17:41] Jonathan Lennox leaves the room
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[07:17:52] <resnick> Murray: Can it go to ISE?
[07:18:28] <resnick> Alissa/Ben: They haven’t, but DISPATCH can always say “No”, which can end up with things to ISE.
[07:18:52] <resnick> Ben: DISPATCH also has gotten better at spinning up quick focused WGs.
[07:19:26] <resnick> Barry: And to repeat, trying to figure out how to make area more cohesive.
[07:19:29] <Keith Moore> To be fair, the RAI stuff never was in APPS.
[07:20:21] <resnick> Ben on the new area:
[07:20:48] <resnick> Talking about what RAI was.
[07:21:05] <Barry Leiba> Keith: Some was.  Geopriv, for example.
[07:21:29] <resnick> Previously, there was SIPPING. Moved to the DISPATCH process.
[07:21:31] Wolfgang Beck joins the room
[07:21:42] <rbarnes > "the liver of RAI"
[07:21:55] <resnick> (Slides stolen from 2013 tutorials. Will be updating on the fly.)
[07:22:37] <resnick> Not “real-time” in the computer science sense. We mean “delay sensitive interpersonal communication”.
[07:22:38] Eliot Lear joins the room
[07:23:16] <resnick> Focused on building blocks. (See slides for details)
[07:23:46] <resnick> RTP, SIP, SDP, SIMPLE/XMPP, RTCWEB, GEOPRIV, ECRIT, CLUE, PERC.
[07:24:44] <resnick> RTP caries time-dependent data across jittery nets.
[07:25:01] <resnick> SIP is about Rendezvous and Negotiation.
[07:25:25] <resnick> Pretty picture of SIPing.
[07:26:33] <resnick> SDP
[07:26:40] <resnick> RTCWEB
[07:27:09] resnick gets bored re-typing things on slides. Go look here: RAI WGs Overview <https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-appsawg-4.pdf>
[07:27:13] <resnick> RAI WGs Overview <https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-appsawg-4.pdf>
[07:27:42] <resnick> Telepresence. CLUE, “immersive” conferencing.
[07:27:55] <resnick> Pretty picture of Telepresence.
[07:28:18] <resnick> Presence and Messaging space.
[07:29:29] Mary Barnes joins the room
[07:30:03] <resnick> Calling party identify (STIR)
[07:30:23] <resnick> (Contrary to the slides, STIR is well-underway)
[07:31:13] <resnick> Emergency Services
[07:31:30] <resnick> (Works with other SDOs)
[07:31:45] <resnick> DISPATCH - Assessing new work
[07:32:46] <resnick> Map of WGs not-very-pretty picture.
[07:33:21] <resnick> More map.
[07:33:36] DanYork joins the room
[07:33:53] <resnick> (SIPCORE belongs on the previous slide)
[07:34:17] <resnick> More background slides; go look for yourself.
[07:34:19] <resnick> Q’s?
[07:34:29] <resnick> Done.
[07:35:27] <resnick> Ben: PERC, MODERN, NETVC are also new groups.
[07:35:59] <resnick> Ted Hardie: ACME - Trying to make it easy to install/update certs.
[07:36:09] <resnick> Sounds very SEC-sy.
[07:36:10] <Scott Hollenbeck> ...and LAGER, though not meeting this week
[07:36:52] <resnick> Matt Miller: JSONBIS - coordinating with ECMA and getting JSON to Standard. Only meeting on the list.
[07:37:19] <resnick> Alexey: IMAPAPND - Extension to get big things uploaded to IMAP. Meeting on the list.
[07:38:22] <resnick> Murray - DBOUND: Figure out how to find relationships between domain names. 17:40 today.
[07:38:47] Tony Hansen joins the room
[07:39:20] Scott Hollenbeck joins the room
[07:39:24] Scott Hollenbeck leaves the room
[07:39:48] <resnick> Marc Blanchet: LAGER is about beer^h^h^h^h a file format to describe a list of codepoints (i.e., text), especially for DNS registries.
[07:40:13] Simon Romano joins the room
[07:40:25] rbarnes leaves the room
[07:40:29] Andrew Biggs joins the room
[07:40:33] <resnick> Adam Roach: NETVC is doing a royalty free video codec, similar to OPUS for audio.
[07:40:54] <resnick> Richard Barnes: PERC is about encrypted conferences that scale.
[07:41:23] rbarnes joins the room
[07:42:05] <resnick> Henning Schulzrinne: MODERN is for managing phone numbers.
[07:42:35] sm joins the room
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[07:43:27] <resnick> Mark Nottingham: CAPPORT BOF - Trying to improve the captive portal problem.
[07:43:43] shoji joins the room
[07:43:52] <resnick> Side conversation on how much worse things could be.
[07:44:18] <hildjj> none of the side conversation had semantic value
[07:44:25] <hildjj> it was just joke-y
[07:44:44] <resnick> Ted Hardie: Bar BOF on use of UDP as substrate. Wed 20:20 Congress I
[07:45:08] <resnick> Cullen Jennings: DETNET BOF - Scheduling timeslots for packets. This PM
[07:45:44] <resnick> Robert Sparks: EDUNEXT BOF - Thinking about doing different things than tutorials, different kinds of trainings. This PM.
[07:46:06] Kristof Teichel joins the room
[07:46:41] <resnick> Lief Johanson - SCIM bar bof (missed the time and place)
[07:47:19] <Kurt> SCIM location was listed as having been posted to "the list"
[07:48:08] <resnick> Linda Dunbar: I2NSF BOF - Virtualized security functions use by multiple vendors. Tuesday 13:00. Applications might want to be able to get at incident reports.
[07:49:01] <resnick> Alexey speaks to IMAP4rev2
[07:49:22] <resnick> Short History of IMAP.
[07:49:46] <resnick> IMAP4, revision 2 <https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-appsawg-10.pdf>
[07:50:00] Kristof Teichel leaves the room
[07:50:15] <resnick> Goals - general.
[07:50:21] Wolfgang Beck leaves the room
[07:51:03] resnick wonders where the blue sheets are, as he never signed
[07:51:11] <resnick> Goals - fixes
[07:51:48] <resnick> (I will presume if people want more details here because they can’t download the slides, they will say so.)
[07:51:54] <resnick> Goals - cleanup
[07:53:01] Frederico A C Neves leaves the room
[07:53:03] <resnick> Goals - improvements
[07:53:29] <Barry Leiba> SCIM location, from "the list:": "The last session on Monday ends at 19:50, so let's meet 8:15-ish at the Prague Beer Museum, Dlouhá 46, Prague 1" … http://www.praguebeermuseum.com/en
[07:53:39] <resnick> Challenges
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[07:55:47] <resnick> What I’ve done so far
[07:56:01] <resnick> What’s next?
[07:57:43] <resnick> Pete Resnick: Why not charter now?
[07:57:44] Frederico A C Neves joins the room
[07:58:12] <resnick> Barry: Because it might distract IMAPAPND. But OK with me.
[07:58:40] <resnick> Dave Crocker: Should get a dedicated mailing list.
[07:59:05] <resnick> Barry: But we need the people on imapext
[07:59:23] <Keith Moore> IMO there is such a thing as too many mailing lists, too much fragmentation of discussions.
[07:59:30] <resnick> Dave: But this is a focused effort. Make it a separte list.
[07:59:42] <resnick> Barry: Suggest you draft a charter and create a list.
[07:59:52] <resnick> Done.
[08:00:07] John L joins the room
[08:00:31] <Keith Moore> the pink box camera is now working.
[08:00:37] <resnick> Cullen Jennings on WebRTC Enterprise Firewall Traversal
[08:00:56] <resnick> Skipping to 4th slide (P2P Media)
[08:01:14] <resnick> Firewalls and WebRTC Traffic <https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-appsawg-11.pdf>
[08:01:37] <Barry Leiba> Hooray for the pink box!
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[08:02:19] <resnick> Back 2 slides to “Proposed Firewall Algorithm for WebRTC”
[08:02:21] <Barry Leiba> BTW, Keith (and other Americans who are on): Thanks for getting up a 0-dark-00 to e-attend.
[08:02:39] John L leaves the room
[08:02:41] <Keith Moore> FWIW, haven't gone to bed yet :)
[08:02:48] <Barry Leiba> Heh...
[08:03:33] <resnick> Looking for input on algorithms, but also trying to figure out who the experts are here.
[08:04:12] <resnick> Eric Rescorla: There are still some problems with the algorithm
[08:04:24] <Keith Moore> Did ekr just say "firewall" and "totally reasonable" in the same sentence?
[08:05:08] <Barry Leiba> I think the angle was more "totally reasonable approach to dealing with firewalls", which isn't quiiiiiite the same thing.
[08:05:12] <resnick> Linda Dunbar: Sounds like I2NSF doing similar things. Is it?
[08:05:32] Aaron Falk joins the room
[08:05:46] <resnick> Cullen: This is more old-school, the firewall is working independently.
[08:06:24] <resnick> Linda: From the firewall perspective, it’s just a signal coming in. So, this is somewhat similar. Are there particular semantics?
[08:06:35] <resnick> Cullen: Yeah, that’s what we want to have a technical discussion about.
[08:07:11] <resnick> Cullen: This is a strawman proposal to address that. Discussing this on the BEHAVE list.
[08:07:34] <resnick> Linda: Having this discussion on I2NS too. We should coordinate.
[08:07:40] <resnick> Cullen: Sounds good.
[08:08:04] <resnick> Eric Rescorla: Key seems to be do this at the firewall without having to change the clients. Right?
[08:08:14] <resnick> Cullen: Right for WebRTC, not for SIP.
[08:08:36] <resnick> Cullen: Even SIP clients that do ICE don’t do everything needed for this.
[08:09:30] <resnick> David Black: STUN and friends are pin-hole punchers. WebRTC won’t work without that. Since we’re doing that, we want this added thing. Caution.
[08:09:45] <resnick> Last slide: What to do about media hiding in HTTPS
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[08:12:52] <resnick> Adam Roach: One additional consideration - Proxies are for privacy. Need to be cognizant of what that means for running WebRTC over the proxy.
[08:13:00] Tony Hansen leaves the room
[08:13:36] <resnick> Ted Hardie: When you say request...?
[08:13:47] <resnick> Cullen: They mean “outbound packet”
[08:13:57] <resnick> Ted: That ain’t going to fly in HTTP2.
[08:14:01] Eliot Lear joins the room
[08:14:18] <resnick> Ted: You need a dedicated mailing list and some Prozac.
[08:14:40] <resnick> Martin Thomson: Doing this because you are unhappy with the current solution?
[08:15:00] <resnick> Cullen: I’ve gotten feedback from vendors.
[08:15:18] <Eliot Lear> oh this is hogwash.  the middlebox vendors have been largely ignored in that wg
[08:15:32] <resnick> Martin: Middlebox vendors have participated
[08:16:30] <Barry Leiba> Eliot, to you want to be channeled at the mic?
[08:16:31] <resnick> Christian Huitema: Transparency vs. Control. Going on the control side is going to screw with transparency and privacy. Going to make firewalls worse than they are.
[08:16:38] <Keith Moore> +1 to Christian Huitema's comment
[08:17:00] <Eliot Lear> sure- but i am not responding to the content of the draft, just martin's statement
[08:17:31] <Barry Leiba> in q
[08:18:04] <Eliot Lear> actually, please cancel.  we've moved on.
[08:18:04] <resnick> Eric Rescorla: This is phrased less helpful than it might. Surprised people think it’s not possible to block voice traffic; of course firewalls can do that.
[08:18:33] <Barry Leiba> canelled
[08:18:44] <resnick> There are two concern that admins have: 1. I don’t want voice/videoc calls at all. 2. I wish they’d choose a different proxy.
[08:19:06] <resnick> Easier way to say, “Here’s a better proxy” is what we want.
[08:20:16] <resnick> Or a signal to say, “I don’t want voice traffic”
[08:20:27] <resnick> Should be some signalling to do that.
[08:22:33] <resnick> Dave Crocker: Heard, “Try to get firewalls to do things the same way”, but also “Let’s try to make the hack work better”. Seems like a cleaner solution is better than the fix to the hack.
[08:23:05] <Keith Moore> The goal in all cases should be to make the network's behavior (including that of firewalls) predictable.
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[08:23:41] <resnick> Cullen: Two parts: What can you do in enterprise and what can you do in residential. Residential we’re stuck. Enterprise you could change, but getting people to change the settings is hard.
[08:25:40] <resnick> Joe Hildebrand: Dave sounded like we needed an architectural framework. One day we might have something like that (e.g., potato-ish things), but as you learn about this, bring that back to stack-evo in the IAB.
[08:26:26] <resnick> Aaron Falk: This looks like a new killer app is stressing the infrastructure, so either fix or block the app. But that’s the proxy’s problem, not the app.
[08:27:26] <resnick> Eric Rescorla: HTTP CONNECT is a terrible mechanism to push voice traffic through the firewall. It would be really nice for there to be a mechanism for apps to do so.
[08:27:27] <Keith Moore> I keep wishing that apps had a reliable way of pointing out exactly what about the network is keeping the app from working.   e.g. this app is being prevented from working by a misconfigured firewall, and the administrator's address is joe@example.com.
[08:28:37] <hildjj> for those that didn't get it: "potato-ish" is a reference to draft-hildebrand-spud-prototype.  This is NOT a protocol you can use here, it's a prototype that's an input into the IAB stackevo program.  One of the things we're exploring there, Keith, is explicit mechanisms for path-to-app communication (such as errors) in a protocol-independent way.
[08:28:40] <resnick> Cullen: I’ll send email to HTTP list; interested to get an answer to EKR’s issues.
[08:30:16] <resnick> WG Reports
[08:30:54] Kurt leaves the room
[08:31:38] <resnick> Dave Crocker: ARCMEDIA - Developing a top-level media type for archives. Chartered in February. Almost no activity. Probably appropriate to shut it down. Comments?
[08:31:58] <resnick> Crickets....
[08:32:35] <resnick> Mark Nottingham: HTTPBIS - HTTP2 shipped, but there are more things in the pipeline.
[08:33:06] <resnick> Cullen Jennings: RTCWEB is getting close to done on the key documents. Pretty boring stage, but need reviewers.
[08:33:21] Frederico A C Neves leaves the room
[08:33:48] <resnick> Moe Zanaty (sp.?): NETVC - Looking to get people from assorted affiliations to get involved.
[08:34:08] <Jonathan Lennox> Mo Zanaty
[08:34:19] <resnick> Alex Mayhoffer: DRINKS is down to just me. Finishing up.
[08:34:38] Kurt joins the room
[08:34:52] <resnick> Alissa: There’s a bunch of groups on the list that are closing soon. At least 6.
[08:35:53] <resnick> Mark Nottingham and Wendy Seltzer on W3C update.
[08:36:28] <resnick> W3C/IETF relationship quiet for the moment. Nothing in RTCWeb/WebRTC problematic at the moment.
[08:36:59] <resnick> Liaising is tending toward pointing W3C people assorted IETF stuff.
[08:37:45] <resnick> (Wendy lists many technologies)
[08:37:53] <resnick> Cullen Jennings: Web of Things?
[08:38:20] <resnick> Wendy: There’s a Web of Things Interest Group.
[08:38:39] <resnick> Mark: Webappsec seems to be the locus.
[08:39:03] <resnick> TPAC is in Sapporo the week before Yokohama.
[08:39:46] <resnick> Working on the details of how to coordinate.
[08:40:38] <resnick> TAG met last week in Berlin. Talking about e2e encryption (without back doors) and [thing Pete missed].
[08:40:39] <hildjj> http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/
[08:41:25] <resnick> Wendy: HTML activities being restructured. New Web Incubator Community Group.
[08:41:57] <resnick> wicg.org
[08:43:00] <resnick> Takehito Akagiri on Mail Divide
[08:43:10] <resnick> Mail Divide Framework <https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-appsawg-7.pdf>
[08:43:45] wseltzer joins the room
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[08:45:05] resnick paying attention to slides, but he’s going through them slide for slide, so nothing to add here.
[08:47:06] <wseltzer> https://www.w3.org/community/wicg/ is the Web Incubator Community Group
[08:48:55] <wseltzer> and http://wicg.io/
[08:50:16] <resnick> Personal Cloud Storage Sync Protocol <https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-appsawg-8.pdf>
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[08:52:30] <resnick> (Yong Cui)
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[09:01:15] <resnick> Joe Hildebrand: Any of the vendors interested?
[09:01:22] <resnick> Yong: No.
[09:01:45] <resnick> Eric Rescorla: There are existing protocols, but none of the vendors used them.
[09:01:55] <John Klensin> Mic: Addition to Joe's question: there are a bunch of vendors who are selling "personal" network storage devices designed for the same sort of purposes, but under enterprise or indivudal control, rather than third-party vendors -- anyone talking with them?  Seems that we shouldn't need two sets of protocols.
[09:02:03] <Barry Leiba> in q
[09:02:15] <resnick> Mark Nottingham: Doesn’t sound like vendors are interested. Maybe just a sync protocol is worth it. Need to be realistic.
[09:03:14] <resnick> Leif Johanson: Supporting Mark. It’s not the sync that locks in. The vendors won’t listen to us. Need to go talk to them directly.
[09:03:49] <resnick> John Klensin channeled.
[09:04:41] <resnick> Mark Nottingham: Bad that people’s data put into proprietary silos. But need to take IM lessons to heart.
[09:05:48] <resnick> Joe Hildebrand: (Whoops; distracted; someone else fill in)
[09:06:28] <hildjj> market incentives drive existing vendors away from standards in order to get brand awareness on your desktop.  think about other incentives you could offer them
[09:06:57] <rbarnes > contrary to some peoples' beliefs, standards bodies can't force anyone to do anything
[09:07:24] <resnick> Cullen Jennings: This needs to be BOFed.
[09:08:21] <hildjj> It needs to be BoF'd, but it would be surprising to me if he could get a successful one put together by Yokohama.  I'm prepared to be impressed and surprised however.
[09:08:45] <resnick> Bob Briscoe on Data Centre to the Home - Ultra Low Latency for All. Come to AQM or Bits n’ Bytes..
[09:09:49] <resnick> Meeting adjourned.
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[09:10:26] <John Klensin> @hildjj: That is one of the reasons I'm interested in the individual/enterprise devices.  Their vendors  might have incentives to play and, if they played together, it might help stimulate the big actors. for all oft the second source reasons.
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[10:40:02] Eliot Lear leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
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[23:17:30] wseltzer leaves the room
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