IETF
appsawg@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, March 23, 2015< ^ >
cm-msk has set the subject to: Applications Area Working Group
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[14:04:13] <cnewman> Meeting has started; chair is walking through slides on WG document status.
[14:04:27] <msk> Thanks for scribing, Chris.
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[14:04:39] <cnewman> Document discussions: The text/markdown media type
[14:04:40] <Sean Turner> yeah thanks from those not in the room
[14:04:53] <cnewman> Sean Leonard presenting.
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[14:06:14] <cnewman> Progress on draft: draft-04 simplified, draft-05 content-disposition, simplified fragment identifiers, draft-06: ABNF update, removed notes.
[14:06:39] <cnewman> text-markdown-use-cases document also updated and now WG document
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[14:07:12] <cnewman> Believe document is ready for last call slightly ahead of schedule.
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[14:07:49] <cnewman> Apps WG meeting concluded. Moving on to application area meeting.
[14:08:05] <cnewman> App WG report progress
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[14:08:55] <cnewman> Precis WG chair: almost done and most documents through WG last call. May have small discussion about additional documents.
[14:09:15] <cnewman> HTTP: finished http 2 in RFC ed Q. Other documents coming down quickly
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[14:09:54] <cnewman> Calext: one document in RFC ed Q. Other two documents adopted, expecting revisions this week.
[14:10:10] <cnewman> Websec: key pinning past auth 48. One dependency also in auth 48.
[14:10:14] <cnewman> JSON: done
[14:10:51] <cnewman> TZDIST: two drafts, one through WG last call. Other is extension and should be done soon.
[14:11:39] <resnick> Anyone got a comment about DMARC, since neither chair is here.
[14:11:40] <resnick> ?
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[14:11:55] <cnewman> ARCMEDIA: creating a new top-level media type. Received two reviews privately.
[14:12:04] <cnewman> SCIM: pretty much done
[14:12:21] <msk> DMARC: ISE (base) document has published.  Document about interoperability issues is in progress.
[14:13:00] <cnewman> UTA: Finishing up first set of documents: attacks out, BCP draft in Q. Now focusing on email. Need people to help inform discussion. What, if any, to do about opportunistic security. Asking for participation.
[14:14:04] <cnewman> EPPExt: meeting on Friday. Published one RFC which describes registry. Four documents on extensions that should be ready for WG last call after this meeting. Discussion about rechartering group to process candidates for standards track extensions.
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[14:14:58] <cnewman> WEIRDS: essentially done. All documents in auth48.
[14:15:10] <cnewman> DMARC: progressing
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[14:15:50] <cnewman> PAWS: stuck in a missref on precis. Now unstuck.
[14:16:13] <cnewman> HYBI: final document still churning, ready to come to AD soon hopefully.
[14:16:59] <cnewman> URNBIS: has important discussion to happen with nobody in room (lots of remote participation). Issue is closing out main document that separates semantics of URNs from semantics of URIs.
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[14:17:11] <msk> thx Pete
[14:17:16] <msk> Nope.
[14:17:36] <cnewman> New WGs: BIER, TEAS, PALS, ANIMA
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[14:18:30] <cnewman> PALS: Pseudowire and LDP-enabled services in routing area. Merger of two previous WGs.
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[14:20:50] <cnewman> New WG: TOKBIND. A lot of protocols use what amount to bearer tokens. Anyone who gets a token by snooping data stream can reuse it elsewhere. This is coming up with a shared secret with client that is bound to TLS session. Should be very interesting to apps.
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[14:21:00] <resnick> Making a bearer token not a bearer token. :-)
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[14:21:46] <cnewman> BIER: draft related to it. Trying to make multicast situation a bit better
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[14:22:27] <cnewman> DOTS: DDoS signaling processing
[14:22:36] <cnewman> DOTS: Tuesday 15:20
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[14:23:46] <cnewman> LUCID: Some issues being discovered about how normalization is used in Unicode. Impact on IDNA and Precis. Purpose is to agree on scope of problem. Expect to have Unicode people attending remotely. May involve revising both IDNA and Precis.
[14:24:07] <cnewman> SUPA: For application people is something to think about. Idea is to have SDN controller that application can control
[14:24:38] <cnewman> SUPA:  intent is somewhere above SDN controller.
[14:25:01] <cnewman> ACME: wednesday afternoon. Certificate enrollment for websites.
[14:25:39] <resnick> SPÜD!!
[14:25:53] <cnewman> SPUD: slides in just a minute. Session Protocol for User Datagrams with a lot of application interaction.
[14:26:09] <cnewman> IESG restructuring: Barry
[14:26:28] <hildjj> does anyone have a Mac dongle I can use?
[14:26:35] <m&m> yes
[14:26:47] <msk> That mic sounds ifne.
[14:26:47] <msk> fine.
[14:27:10] <John Klensin> Rah Pete!
[14:27:39] <resnick> 2 days, 21 hours, 33 minutes
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[14:28:01] <resnick> Sorry, 2 days, 10 hours, 33 minutes.
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[14:28:31] <cnewman> Main change is merger of apps and RAI (called ART).
[14:29:07] <cnewman> We're also going to allow responsible AD for WG to not be AD for area. This way security AD can be responsible for apps AD.
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[14:29:42] <cnewman> Now have 3 routing area directors due to workload.
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[14:31:56] <cnewman> Idea of AD in area with responsible AD from another area. Some have to do with informing area about related work and some has to do with management of WG. It's a way of distributing workload. The "technical advisor" approach that used to be done sometimes led to advisor doing the heavy lifting without ability to push the button. Want to have more flexibility.
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[14:33:22] <John Klensin> Speakers need a reminder about announcing their names clearly
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[14:35:05] <resnick> Pete and Cullen there at the mic before. Sorry about that.
[14:35:20] <cnewman> Larry asked what happens to apps area directorate
[14:36:19] <cnewman> Merged area will write statement for nomcom for area expertise. Still plan to have apps area WG and dispatch WG in RAI.
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[14:36:51] <cnewman> Dispatch works by reviewing work that's proposed and finding a home for it. Doesn't process documents themselves.
[14:37:17] <cnewman> Apps area sometimes does a good time processing document but often they don't get attention needed. Barry thinks it would be better to have more small short-lived working groups.
[14:37:53] <cnewman> Dave@mic: Original reason for having apps area wg deal with documents was to avoid cost of spinning up WG.
[14:38:26] <cnewman> Barry: we have been having more success at spinning up short-lived WGs. One came up in 4 weeks.
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[14:39:02] <cnewman> IMAP move was the really quick one.
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[14:42:36] <cnewman> Next topic: IAB SEMI Workshop
[14:42:43] <cnewman> Dave Thaler and Joe Hillldebrand
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[14:44:11] <cnewman> Substrate Protocol for User Datagrams (SPUD) status - Joe Hildebrand
[14:44:15] <msk> mic is fine here
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[14:46:36] <msk> The mic is so good I could hear that cell phone.
[14:46:45] <=JeffH> :)
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[14:51:18] <cnewman> TAPs WG is related and meeting today at 1.
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[14:54:25] <John Klensin> I have no clue who is speaking.. and the camera is pointed to someone else, so does not help.
[14:54:44] <msk> Carsten Bormann.  I think he said at least his first name.
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[14:55:03] <John Klensin> Thx
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[15:02:11] <resnick> Do neither S/MIME nor PGP make a copy of the headers in the signed/encrypted body?
[15:02:59] <John Klensin> This "Signed messages" slide is a new winner in the "slides that are incomprehensible remotely" contest :-(
[15:03:13] <barryleiba> The way to fully encrypt in S/MIME is to encrypt a message/rfc822 and include it as a body part.
[15:03:59] <resnick> That's what I thought. PGP doesn't have this?
[15:04:02] <fenton> Barry: Are there any MUAs that actually do that?
[15:04:32] <jcooter> PGP *can* do this, it’s a function of the MUA whether they render the encrypted headers appropriately or not
[15:04:38] <barryleiba> Jim: Yeh, not that I'm aware of.  The problem is that S/MIME isn't used enough to get that stuff into implementations.
[15:04:43] <John Klensin> Pete, Barry's answer also appoies to your question -- the model was to keep the headers out because transport changes could mess up the signature.  Of course, either PGP or S/MIME can handle an embedded msg.
[15:04:56] <barryleiba> It's more or less a check box.  "Supports S/MIME" — check.
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[15:07:35] <fenton> How would an MUA actually display an encrypted subject? Displaying it in a message list might be problematic from a security standpoint as well.
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[15:08:03] <barryleiba> That's a UI issue.  :-)
[15:08:30] <barryleiba> My thought would be to put "<private subject>" or some such in the UI until the message has been decrypted.
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[15:08:40] <barryleiba> But I'm not a UI designer.
[15:09:05] <Julian Reschke> ahem; who's taling?
[15:09:10] <Julian Reschke> talking?
[15:09:11] <msk> John Levine
[15:09:23] <Julian Reschke> and before?
[15:09:26] <fenton> :) Not so much of a UI issue as an opsec issue that impacts the usefulness of this feature
[15:09:33] <msk> Uncertain.
[15:09:53] <msk> Is it just me, or does the phrase "we can talk about it later" from a presenter sometimes come across as "you wanna take this outside?"
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[15:19:35] <hildjj> A cygnet is a baby swan
[15:19:50] <hildjj> so, a small VPN.
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[15:21:20] <barryleiba> Is that like "veal is a baby cow"?
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[15:23:41] <John Klensin> Is it just me, or are the slides being presented (and mostly unreadable in Meetecho) different from the deck in Presentation Materials?
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[15:24:25] <hildjj> i asked him to go to the mic, but dave told him to sit back down
[15:24:31] <hildjj> i'm not sure what his name is.
[15:24:44] <msk> Ladar Levison, I believe.  Dave's presenting for him, basically.
[15:24:48] <hildjj> nod.
[15:24:53] <Meetecho> John Klensin: slides should be fine, they might be unreadable if they're rendered as small in your UI
[15:24:55] <hildjj> he's sitting just to my right
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[15:26:34] <John Klensin> @Meetecho: some of them are unreadable even when full-screen on a circa 25 inch monitor -- contrast and type size problem, not your fault.
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[15:32:28] <John Klensin> Of course, especially as we move into EAI-space, using an email address as a/the primary identifier for a person and then binding keys to it raises a whole set of other issues.
[15:33:04] <fenton> I actually disagree with PHB that we should try to unify all those things. Trying to use the same infrastructure for (for example) store and forward and real-time over-constrains the possible solutions.
[15:33:37] <Franck Martin> SMTP != XMPP
[15:33:43] <cnewman> Presentation on outbound port blocking for port 25 on dynamic IP addresses
[15:34:06] <fenton> Franck: Exactly.
[15:34:40] <barryleiba> Do any responsible senders, who might pay attention to this kind of advice, actually NOT block 25 at this point?
[15:35:01] <barryleiba> MAAWG has advised this for at least 5 years, probably more.
[15:35:06] <jcooter> a bunch of smaller ISPs don’t, especially overseas
[15:35:31] <jcooter> it’s definitely a case of death by 1000 paper cuts
[15:36:25] <bortzmeyer> barryleiba: MAAWG has also advertised many bad things such as blocking port 53 to force the use of the ISP's resolver
[15:36:41] <=JeffH> it seems from looking ahead in the slides that he/they are working on documenting their actual practice (in .jp)
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[15:36:42] <john.levine> ten years for MAAWG, I think
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[15:36:51] <barryleiba> December 2005: https://www.m3aawg.org/sites/maawg/files/news/MAAWG_Port25rec0511.pdf
[15:36:54] <john.levine> who is the audience for this document?
[15:37:00] <John Klensin> There are ways to deal with the bad side-effects of this, e.g., by making that "dynamic unless registered and authorized", but binding it tightly to dynamic, especially for IPv4, is a nice business model for voracious ISPs.
[15:37:28] <barryleiba> I would rather see us just point to MAAWG's document.
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[15:38:08] <john.levine> @bortzmeyer: no, MAAWG does not tell anyone to block port 53
[15:38:10] <fenton> Hmm, has anyone looked at port 25 blocking with respect to new network neutrality rules?
[15:38:23] <john.levine> @fenton, yes
[15:38:30] <barryleiba> Jim, as long as you block consistently, you're neutral.
[15:39:20] <fenton> Yes, but if I pay Comcast more for a business connection they unblock port 25 for me.  Seems like a pay-for-unblockage thing in some ways.
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[15:41:04] <cnewman> end of agenda
[15:41:10] <resnick> AOB?
[15:41:25] <John Klensin> Jim, that is _exactly_ what it is.   Especially if one compares what services are being delivered to that business connection that don't go to a residential one at a very small fraction of the price.
[15:41:31] <bortzmeyer> john.levine:  https://www.m3aawg.org/sites/maawg/files/news/MAAWG_DNS%20Port%2053V1.0_2010-06.pdf
[15:43:09] <mnot> https://bit.ly/captive-portal-madness
[15:43:47] <Franck Martin> bortzmeyer: not this doc… another one on port 25
[15:44:21] <bortzmeyer> Franck Martin: ?
[15:45:31] <Franck Martin> bortzmeyer: https://www.m3aawg.org/sites/maawg/files/news/MAAWG_Port25rec0511.pdf
[15:46:04] <bortzmeyer> Franck Martin: so what? I was talking about MAAWG recommendation to block port 53 and you quote a document on port 25 blocking.
[15:46:45] <Franck Martin> the presentation was about blocking port 25 the M3AAWG recommendation on it, is the above.
[15:47:34] <Franck Martin> I see, scrolled up, nvm
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[15:56:30] <fenton> BTW, audio quality via Meetecho is really excellent. Thanks to everyone that made that happen.
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[15:57:22] <John Klensin> Mic: I can try to do some writing (not today), but this conversation really worries me from an "email address as Identifier" point of view, especially since EAI pushes us toward multiple primary addresses per person.
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