IETF
appsawg@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, November 10, 2014< ^ >
cm-msk has set the subject to: Applications Area Working Group
Room Configuration
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[19:00:33] <Tim Draegen> meeting is starting, going through note well
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[19:01:41] <John Klensin> Cameria seems to be pointing at the carpet.  Nice pattern, but not helpful
[19:01:56] <Tim Draegen> (links can be found from http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/91/  Monday 0900)
[19:02:02] <Stephen Farrell> pattern doesn't look like Paul either
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[19:03:12] <John Klensin> Mic:  Yes, I assume it is waiting on Barry.   As far as I know, I'm not in the critical path at present
[19:04:10] Antoin Verschuren joins the room
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[19:04:36] <Stephen Farrell> the camera does seem live, someone bumped it a second ago but it ain't pointed usefully
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[19:05:24] <Ned Freed> Larry is right; I can review the media type stuff but not how the registration matches actual usage
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[19:06:28] <John Klensin> I'm recogmozomg  most of the voices, but others won't.  Speakers need to dientify theymselves.  The carpet is no help.
[19:06:43] <Dave Crocker> Is there a discussion venue for any of these otherwise independent efforts?
[19:07:09] Nik Tomkinson joins the room
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[19:07:23] Tony Hansen joins the room
[19:07:30] <Dave Crocker> ack. tnx.
[19:07:36] john.levine leaves the room
[19:07:44] <Tim Draegen> apps-discuss]
[19:07:52] <Tim Draegen> sean leonard talking now
[19:07:58] Gabriel Montenegro joins the room
[19:08:02] <cabo> Please use the whole screen, if possible.
[19:08:11] Gabriel Montenegro leaves the room
[19:08:23] <Tim Draegen> If you'd like your comments read out, please preface with "MIC:" or similar
[19:08:29] <Barry Leiba> wtf?
[19:08:39] <Stephen Farrell> will do, and thanks for jabber-scribing
[19:08:50] <cabo> Not for the mic, just for the chair controlling the laptop.
[19:09:35] <cabo> That looks weird.
[19:09:53] Antoin Verschuren leaves the room
[19:10:10] <John Klensin> I can see the left 3/4 of Sean.  He seems to match the carpet, which still dominates the video frame.
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[19:10:48] <cabo> (Sorry to be terse.  The video output of Murray's mac fills about 3/4 of the available screen space.
[19:10:53] <Stephen Farrell> same here wrt video, but all quite usable so far and its monday 0900
[19:11:11] <cabo> It appears impossible to configure the Mac to do this, so there must be some other intervening hardware.)
[19:12:04] <resnick> Apparently that's as big as it gets. :-(
[19:12:23] <alexey.melnikov> Murray tried to reset it...
[19:12:29] <cabo> The Mac is doing the right thing, but there is something that is scaling it down afterwards.
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[19:12:43] <cabo> Meetecho???
[19:13:00] <alexey.melnikov> cabo: are you remote?
[19:13:05] <cabo> Local.
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[19:14:55] <Dave Crocker> MIC: Especially for a 'language' like this, with its history of variation, the variation identifier needs to be /mandatory/.  Otherwise the content generator will assume a different default than the content consumer.
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[19:15:30] <Simon Romano> Meetecho is available @: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf91/appsawg
[19:15:33] <Barry Leiba> in q
[19:15:55] Kurt Andersen joins the room
[19:16:49] <Ned Freed> MIC: Larry is right, but putting the variant inline is essentially a language change. Can we do that?
[19:16:57] David Perkins joins the room
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[19:17:34] <Ned Freed> MIC: Regarding the language label being mandatory, the real question is what happens when the label isn't available.
[19:17:36] Sam Silberman leaves the room
[19:17:44] <Dave Crocker> MIC: assumptions about assumptions about defaults tend to diverge.
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[19:24:34] <Tony Hansen> I'm not seeing any slides in meetecho
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[19:26:07] <Tony Hansen> MIC: I would support putting a markdown to xml2rfc converter up on the xml2rfc website
[19:26:35] <Barry Leiba> Out of scope, Tony.
[19:26:37] <Tim Draegen> tony - not being channeled due to time
[19:26:41] <Tony Hansen> ok
[19:26:59] <Tim Draegen> Frank Martin on TLS results in AR mail header
[19:27:05] <Tony Hansen> I think my audio is also being time delayed
[19:27:22] <Barry Leiba> Yes, certainly.  Always audio delay for remote.
[19:27:27] <Stephen Farrell> sync/slides etc seem ok here
[19:27:27] <Barry Leiba> :-(
[19:28:20] <Stephen Farrell> FB's "opportunistic" is their own definition btw, not unloike but not identical to the I-D on that topic
[19:28:25] <Barry Leiba> Tony: I will send "***" the next time Murray talks.  You can time when you hear him.
[19:28:40] <Tony Hansen> thx
[19:30:38] <John Klensin> TonyL slides are coming through fine here.  The video is a bit marginal (angle, size, and framing, not quality), but audio and slides are fine.
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[19:31:55] <Tony Hansen> I'll try a different computer combination for the next meeting
[19:32:13] <Barry Leiba> ***
[19:32:24] <Stephen Farrell> about 2-3 seconds here
[19:32:28] <Nik Tomkinson> Tony, for me Firefox just provided audio but Chrome has video, audio and slides - WebRTC support I think
[19:32:32] <Dave Crocker> MIC:  TLS /very/ rarely authenticates the 'client' side of the session, which would seem to be the only identity of interest for Auth Results.
[19:32:44] <Stephen Farrell> no sorry more, maybe 10s
[19:33:06] <Stephen Farrell> I mixed up speakers:-)
[19:33:11] <Dave Crocker> Nik: I'm using FIrefox and getting video and audio nicely.
[19:33:49] <Tony Hansen> shoot, I didn't recognize Murray's voice right away either -- it was about 10-15 seconds delay
[19:33:55] Stephen Farrell chromium/linux and mostly good, bit of video/audio glitchiness last minute or two
[19:33:57] <Nik Tomkinson> ok, thanks Dave I really should upgrade
[19:33:58] <Dave Crocker> MIC:  No it isn't.
[19:34:51] <Dave Crocker> Nik -- as I age, I almost always wish I could upgrade.
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[19:35:16] <Stephen Farrell> that was Orit Levin I guess
[19:35:16] <Ned Freed> Dave: I'ts not that simple. Sure, TLS client auth is rare in general. But there are environments (e.g., military) where it's an absolute requirement. And we shouldn't try to predice the future.
[19:36:49] <Stephen Farrell> ***
[19:36:58] <Stephen Farrell> i.e. just heard murray:-)
[19:37:03] <Dave Crocker> Ned: As long as there is clarity about the fact that this won't be usefu (at least for now) in the general Internet, there's certainly nothing conceptually or technically wrong with specifying this... as longas the spec is sufficiently clear about what /specific/ security information is being include and how little utility there will be (for now) in the open Internet.
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[19:38:23] <Stephen Farrell> not for MIC, but it'd be good to do a bit of threat analysis on whatever is decided here, I can imagine a few ways that this header could mislead maybe (e.g. if handed a self-signed cert of cert from bad-actor or something)
[19:38:55] <Stephen Farrell> nothing mega important though probably but good to spend a few cycles on later
[19:38:59] <Tim Draegen> additional topic discussion -> list
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[19:39:13] <Tim Draegen> (agree w/ Stephen on spending few cycles)
[19:39:26] <Yoav Nir> My guess (not based on any fact) is that the 90% of good certificates comes from corporate Exchange servers that offer OWA, EWS and ActiveSync, all of which require a valid certificate
[19:39:40] <Tim Draegen> Bert Greevenbosch is up
[19:39:48] <Ned Freed> Dave: Actually, you're still overgeneralizing a bit. The "open internet" is a big place with a lot odd corners and niches. We really should not assume we understand all of those, and again, we should not predict what the future holds. So yes, be clear on the information provided does and doesn't mean, but avoid editorial comments on overall utility.
[19:40:39] <Dave Crocker> Stephen -- not sure this rises to the level that qualifies as an actual threats analysis, but there certainly tends to be a common misunderstanding about what functions TLS typically does perform, compared with what it /can/ perform.  Making sure the text is extremely clear about what is being done is therefore even more important than usual.
[19:42:57] <Franck Martin> https://www.facebook.com/notes/protect-the-graph/massive-growth-in-smtp-starttls-deployment/1491049534468526
[19:43:08] <Franck Martin> so you don't have to type the URL
[19:43:12] <Franck Martin> :P
[19:44:56] <Tim Draegen> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-greevenbosch-appsawg-cbor-cddl-03
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[19:49:17] <Franck Martin> taking over jabber as Tim is reporting
[19:49:44] <Franck Martin> little issues left for http2.2
[19:49:46] <Franck Martin> 2.0
[19:50:23] <Stephen Farrell> @dave: sorry wasn't watching here, yeah fair enough that the TLS authres work to be done is more of a "think how this'll be mis-used" rather than a big threat analysis
[19:50:25] <Franck Martin> Stephen on mic
[19:51:06] <Franck Martin> URNBIS update
[19:51:34] <Phill > We are still dong URNs?
[19:51:43] <Phill > Ugh
[19:51:48] <Franck Martin> EPPEXT on mic
[19:52:36] <Franck Martin> one issue for discussion: extension should be standard or informational
[19:52:55] <Franck Martin> DMARC on mic
[19:53:50] Ning Kong joins the room
[19:54:13] <Franck Martin> base document for DMARC is on the Independent track due to its history
[19:54:19] <Franck Martin> JSON on mic
[19:54:28] <Ned Freed> Folks interested in the DMARC work should be looking at the wiki as well as the mailing list.
[19:54:50] <Franck Martin> PRECIS on mic
[19:55:04] <Franck Martin> CORE on mic
[19:55:12] <Franck Martin> base spec published this year
[19:55:24] <Franck Martin> work on resource directory this week
[19:55:40] <Franck Martin> WEBSEC on mic
[19:55:48] <Franck Martin> key pinning in IESG
[19:56:05] <Franck Martin> then shutdown planned
[19:56:16] <=JeffH> but we need to keep websec on hot standby IMHO
[19:56:19] <Franck Martin> UTA on mic
[19:56:49] <Barry Leiba> re: websec… the mailing list will remain open as a place for discussion
[19:57:29] <Franck Martin> please read all the UTA documents
[19:57:43] <=JeffH> that's fine, thx.  tho I won't be surprised if we end up restarting websec within a year or so
[19:57:48] <Franck Martin> email use of TLS will kick in this week
[19:58:11] <Franck Martin> HYBI on mic
[19:58:18] <Franck Martin> last call on last draft
[19:58:41] <Franck Martin> SCIM on mic
[19:58:45] <Franck Martin> pretty much done
[19:59:24] <Franck Martin> there will be other topic to tackle in another WG
[19:59:36] <Franck Martin> WEIRDS on mic
[19:59:44] <Franck Martin> planned shutdown
[19:59:50] <Franck Martin> PAWS on mic
[19:59:57] <Franck Martin> plannet shutdown
[20:00:04] <Franck Martin> planned
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[20:00:28] <Franck Martin> New Working groups now
[20:00:41] <Franck Martin> CALEXT on mic
[20:00:53] <Franck Martin> first draft adopted
[20:01:19] <Franck Martin> IANAPLAN on mic
[20:01:45] <Franck Martin> last call on the one group item
[20:02:09] <Franck Martin> DPRIVE on mic
[20:02:44] <Franck Martin> ensuring privacy between client and resolver (is it possible, etc…)
[20:03:21] <Franck Martin> DTN on mic
[20:03:38] <Franck Martin> irtf->ietf
[20:04:02] <Franck Martin> TAPS on mic
[20:04:47] <Frederico A C Neves> BEEP 2.0
[20:04:57] <Franck Martin> allowing to select the Transport Protocol (UDP/TCP/???) by the apps
[20:05:34] Andrew Biggs leaves the room
[20:05:38] <Franck Martin> I2NSF on mic
[20:05:41] SM joins the room
[20:05:52] Aaron joins the room
[20:06:17] <Franck Martin> there will be presentations
[20:06:28] <Franck Martin> ARCMEDIA on mic
[20:06:43] <Franck Martin> Wooohoo! new media type
[20:07:24] <Franck Martin> W3C on mic
[20:08:03] <Franck Martin> Happy Birthday!
[20:08:15] <Franck Martin> HTML5 is published
[20:08:38] <Phill > WWW has a 5 year aniversary every single year
[20:08:54] <Franck Martin> (I thought that was the Internet?)
[20:09:07] Andrew Biggs joins the room
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[20:10:29] <Tim Draegen> feel free to bring up HTML 5 specification, in the references section, long prose...
[20:11:28] <Phill > For the Web there is the year that the original memo was written (89), the year the web was first shown in public (92) and the year the W3C was founded (93), The first web server went live in 90 and somthing must have ahppened in 91
[20:11:54] <Tim Draegen> ..group of browser vendors put forth documentation, slowly becoming recognized as standards-producing org
[20:12:25] Meetecho joins the room
[20:12:49] <Tim Draegen> real world data around URL usage/code is being folded into W3C work
[20:13:04] <Tim Draegen> ...then IETF may be able to relate input into work around 3986
[20:13:13] schuki joins the room
[20:13:22] <Tim Draegen> Sam Ruby is fellow progressing this work
[20:13:27] <Tim Draegen> Frank Martin at mic
[20:14:18] <Phill > .
[20:14:40] <resnick> For those who were curious about the reference: http://www.w3.org/TR/html/references.html#refsURL
[20:15:10] Yanir Weiss joins the room
[20:15:16] <Tim Draegen> (presence of w3c url in HTML email could be a security concern)
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[20:18:18] <John Klensin> Mic: 3986 would be a standard for what works if the community had broad consensus about what it actually says.
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[20:22:42] <Tim Draegen> suggestion to create informative text to point people looking at uri/ls at experts doing ongoing work
[20:23:03] kmurchison leaves the room
[20:24:36] <Tim Draegen> IETF and w3c plenary will happen next november in japan : if you're interested, contact Mark Nottingham to attend (and for more info)
[20:25:03] fielding joins the room
[20:25:13] <Tim Draegen> ~40% of folks in room are involved in w3c
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[20:25:52] <Tim Draegen> Barry wrt proposed IESG changes
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[20:26:21] <Tim Draegen> the APPS area is NOT being phased out!
[20:26:44] <Stephen Farrell> yeah we're just phasing out Resnick:-)
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[20:27:26] <Tim Draegen> suggestion to cluster work (across all areas) according to commonalities of expertise/technology/etc
[20:27:35] Ning Kong leaves the room
[20:27:59] <Tim Draegen> desire to have proposal finalized before new ADs take office in march
[20:28:55] bortzmeyer leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[20:28:56] <Tim Draegen> NomCom & IESG timeline/windows add additional complexity to this process
[20:28:57] bortzmeyer joins the room
[20:29:08] <Tim Draegen> (Pete is not an ethereal being)
[20:29:23] <Stephen Farrell> even in a diving suit
[20:29:59] Aaron leaves the room
[20:30:18] <Tim Draegen> (skillset required: corporeal being)
[20:30:19] <Dave Crocker> It's tempting to suggest that the issue isn't that Pete can't be replaced but that he destroyed the position...  And yes, there's a smiley attached.
[20:31:48] <Dave Crocker> MIC: (attempting more seriousness) Some problems created by this 'interim' proposal is to put Apps in an inferior position.  Since Apps is already often treated differentially, that's probably a problem.  The other is that RAI really isn't a good surrogate for Apps.
[20:31:50] Aaron joins the room
[20:32:56] <Tim Draegen> mic in q
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[20:36:06] <John Klensin> Leslie: Very strong +1.  And your examples didn't even scratch the surface of things I think are falling through the cracks.
[20:36:29] <Stephen Farrell> @leslie: part of the motivation within the IESG for doing this is to see if we can end up more flexible and better able to react to the work people want to do. I'd hope that more flexibility would help catch things currently falling into cracks.
[20:37:19] Ken Murchison leaves the room
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[20:39:00] <John Klensin> MIC: Precis notwithstanding, we are also letting a lot of 118n stuff fall through those cracks too.
[20:39:48] Yanir Weiss leaves the room
[20:39:59] <Tim Draegen> mic in q
[20:40:24] <Andrew Sullivan> @John: is that because the IAB sucks, though, and not the IESG?
[20:40:35] <Dave Crocker> MIC:  The problem with this 'interim' change is that it has strategic impact and therefore won't have localized effects, as an interim step ought to.
[20:41:55] Martin Duerst joins the room
[20:42:13] <Stephen Farrell> PHB is remotely loud:-)
[20:42:25] <Tony Hansen> MIC: hopefully another result is that the AD workload goes down to be less than 90%-100%, to make it easier to find AD candidates.  Is that one of the goals? If not, it needs to be.
[20:43:03] <Barry Leiba> Tony: We have indeed discussed that within the IESG.
[20:43:09] <Barry Leiba> We're going to try.
[20:44:11] =JeffH leaves the room
[20:45:13] <Tim Draegen> Randall Gellens talks about SLIM
[20:45:34] <Phill > Thats BCP 70 fr XML
[20:47:27] <Tim Draegen> SLIM will address 2 problems spaces: email & interactive calls
[20:49:15] <Tim Draegen> 1st draft proposes new content type: multipart/multilingual
[20:49:28] <Bill Mills> Camera feed from the room is moderately to completely useless FYI
[20:50:01] <Stephen Farrell> yeah there needs to be an X on the floor for speakers to help with that maybe
[20:50:22] <Stephen Farrell> and if we could add a remote control trapdoor that'd be fun:-)
[20:50:33] Aaron joins the room
[20:50:35] <Phill > Was I too loud or not loud enough
[20:50:45] <Andrew Sullivan> I want the trapdoor button in the room too
[20:50:48] <Tim Draegen> (there is an odd unmanned thing that might be a camera)
[20:50:52] Kurt Andersen (phone) leaves the room
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[20:50:59] <Bill Mills> Including all translations in a message has significant overheard.   Being able to demand the correct language of the wrong one is recieved might be useful for e-mail.
[20:51:00] <Stephen Farrell> @PHB: briefly qiute loud but I'm wearing earbuds
[20:51:04] Kurt Andersen (phone) joins the room
[20:51:24] <Aaron> Does NSFW / SFW qualify as a language?
[20:51:50] <Ned Freed> The security considerations for this are going to be interesting.
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[20:51:56] <Bill Mills> Trapdoor interesting, remote triggered electroshock is far more practical.
[20:53:13] <Bill Mills> Seems liek the hard part here is not call setup but the magic behind it to know what language is needed.
[20:54:09] <Claudio Allocchio> We will need a 100 pages security considerations   , with all possible translarions (of course certified by an official translator, otherwise they're not secure) :):)
[20:54:34] Peter Koch leaves the room
[20:54:43] <Franck Martin> sounds like a job for ITU?
[20:55:00] Simon Romano joins the room
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[20:55:50] <Dave Crocker> MIC:  "Discussions" are held where?
[20:56:12] <Barry Leiba> Dave: I'll be creating a mailing list, will announce that after the mic line comments.
[20:57:34] <Franck Martin> This is why IKEA use pictures only….
[20:57:38] <Andrew Sullivan> I propose that we measure the quality using prositrons.
[20:57:46] Meetecho joins the room
[20:57:47] <Barry Leiba> Franck: :-)
[20:57:57] <Andrew Sullivan> Each chunk of prose has _n_ prositrons
[20:58:01] <Dave Crocker> Barry - ack. tnx.  Probably good to offer that to the room.
[20:58:08] <Barry Leiba> I will
[20:58:14] <Meetecho> The camera should be fixed now. The point is that the speakers keep walking around :)
[20:58:19] <cnewman> RFC 1766: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; differences=Content-Language; boundary="limit" :-)
[20:58:37] <Franck Martin> nothing wrong to read an english manual from a product manufactured in China…
[20:58:40] <Andrew Sullivan> prositrons are measured by asking a competent speaker about the quality of the text
[20:58:41] Aaron leaves the room
[20:58:52] <Dave Crocker> FOLKS -- did I miss the announcement that this jabber session has been allocated to the bad-attitude function?  While all the humor is of course creative, it messes with signal-to-noise.
[20:59:27] <Stephen Farrell> @meetecho: thanks. I do think an X on the floor might help, and the trapdoor too of course:-)
[20:59:29] <Nik Tomkinson> Mic: implementation still quite conceptual so far
[20:59:40] <Martin Duerst> @cneman: Yes, I also thought that this already existed
[20:59:55] <Andrew Sullivan> @Dave Well, then, I'll make the point more straigtforwardly: we're talking about a positive measure of prose quality for a signalling mechanism that appears completely intractable
[21:00:00] Joe  Due joins the room
[21:00:18] <Dave Crocker> /Hand Raised/
[21:00:33] <Tony Hansen> raise hand
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[21:00:35] <Martin Duerst> +0.5
[21:00:37] <Ned Freed> I am interested in the email part.
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[21:00:56] <Claudio Allocchio> so do I for the email part
[21:01:08] <cnewman> Revision of RFC 1766 got rid of that feature because it made multipart/alternative more complex than necessary. Interesting the idea existed back then, but a separate media type, as in the new document, is a better design, IMHO.
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[21:01:35] <resnick> It's Sean's presos that are coming up too small.
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[21:03:05] <cabo> They are 16:9, but there is a Halo of black pixels around the other ones as well.
[21:03:33] <Franck Martin> does the IP has been cleared?
[21:08:21] <Tim Draegen> text/nfo media type under discussion
[21:08:23] <alexey.melnikov> There is no requirement for the format to be covered by IETF IPR in order to register a MIME type
[21:08:44] <alexey.melnikov> The registration form is covered by IETF IPR though
[21:08:59] <Dave Thaler> FWIW, I'm fine with not registering non-x versions if there's a process way to do that.
[21:10:34] <alexey.melnikov> Roy suggested not to register non x- variants, as nobody will switch to using them
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[21:11:20] <Martin Duerst> Question: did you/do you plan to register the charset
[21:11:22] <Martin Duerst> ?
[21:11:31] <Tim Draegen> is that a mic question?
[21:11:35] <Dave Thaler> @Alexey, yep, that's what I'm responding to... i.e. fine with me.
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[21:11:47] <Martin Duerst> yes, mic please, thanks!
[21:13:02] <Tim Draegen> Ali Begen on URLs and HTTP response forms for multicast
[21:13:41] <John Klensin> Sean: of course, if anyone pay s any attention to WHATWG/W3C "encoding", any new charset you register comes pre-deprecated.
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[21:14:06] <Dave Thaler> @Alexey but currently the only way allowed in a strict reading of RFC 6838, to register x- is to register a non-x too.  I think Mark clarified at the mic that wasn't the intent and Roy said if it was we should override the process.
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[21:19:43] <Martin Duerst> in example, I think the second // may need some escaping
[21:20:02] <alexey.melnikov> Martin Duerst: Murray and I just thought the same :-)
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[21:22:04] <Dave Thaler> @Martin: why?  path segments after the first one use: segment       = *pchar
[21:23:18] <Martin Duerst> using colons inside the URI may be a bad idea because it limits what you can use as a relative URI (because "network:media.example.com/..." will be interpreted as a "networ:" URI.)
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[21:24:20] <Ned Freed> FWIW, section 3.4 of RFC 6838 is pretty explicit that widely deployed x- type names can be registered directly.
[21:24:23] <Dave Thaler> it may be a bad idea, agree, but it's allowed in the URI syntax.
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[21:24:30] <Martin Duerst> Dave: for //, just a hunch that some algorithm related to relative URIs may remove one of the slashes.. Ask Roy if he's there, he will know much better.
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[21:24:58] <Dave Thaler> Roy is sitting next to me
[21:25:33] <Bill Mills> isn't the scheme explicitly that portion before the first ":"?
[21:26:25] <Bill Mills> mailto:bill@example.com for example
[21:26:28] <Martin Duerst> Bill: yes, but a relative URI may start in the middle, and there is no external distinction betwen absolute and relative URIs
[21:26:48] <Dave Thaler> @Ned: that's the section that says "by following the procedure defined in Appendix A".  It's the 2nd paragraph of Appendix A that appears to say you need a non-x name too.
[21:27:10] <fielding> We cannot use non-x media types if existing viewers already support the x-type. It is a simple chicken and egg problem, except there are a billion chickens. The server can only send one type indicator, so the non-x type cannot ever be sent.  SO, we should only include the x-type in the registry.
[21:27:13] <Bill Mills> @Martin: Ah yes....  fun
[21:27:34] <Dave Thaler> @Ned, but it's not entirely clear there, so this was a good dicussion
[21:29:41] <Dave Thaler> @Martin: a relative scheme must start with a non-colon segment.  So any segment with a colon (which is legal) cannot be used to start a relative URI.
[21:30:29] <Dave Thaler> (section 3.3 of RFC 3986)
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[21:30:47] <Martin Duerst> One way to do it would be to register x-foo and foo, but put a note on the foo registration saying NEVER USE THIS.
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[21:31:19] <fielding> ./this:is:relative
[21:31:20] <Dave Thaler> I think we all agreed that we don't need to register foo, just x-foo, even if the RFC wasn't clear about htat.
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[21:31:40] <Martin Duerst> But I agree with Roy that it's better to make a process exception. Maybe we'd even be in a better position if we reissued RFC 6838.
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[21:32:34] <Dave Thaler> what I heard (from Mark) was that no process exception is needed, and after reading 6838 appendix A again now, i can see how it can be read that way.
[21:32:53] <Martin Duerst> Roy, yes, ./this:is:relative does the trick, but most people will not think that far.
[21:33:16] <Martin Duerst> The less colons, the better. There are enough other characters.
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[21:34:04] <fielding> I agree: don't use colons unless you intend to disrupt hierarchical referencing (e.g., urn)
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[21:35:22] <Ned Freed> I completely fail to see the applicability of the paragraph you cite. That paragraph is talking about registering an unfaceted name in a faceted namespace. Unless I've missed something, we're talking about registering an unfaceted name in the standards tree, which is unfaceted by definition.
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[21:35:38] <Ned Freed> And even if it this weren't the case, it's a SHOULD, not a MUST.
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