IETF
appsawg@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, July 21, 2014< ^ >
cm-msk has set the subject to: Applications Area Working Group
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[13:04:36] <Eric Burger> There's a bit of distortion on the audio.
[13:04:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> yes we noticed
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[13:05:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> we'll try to get this fixed later
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[13:05:10] <Eric Burger> Thanks!
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[13:06:26] <Barry Leiba> It's busier over here.
[13:06:29] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Note well
[13:07:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Note well in other words
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[13:07:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Administrativia
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[13:09:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Work completed since IETF 89
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[13:09:59] <Martin Thomson> this is an eye chart
[13:10:19] <Eric Burger> Besides being an eye chart, is it worth using f2f time for a status report one can read on the Web?
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[13:11:06] <Martin Thomson> Eric Burger: that's a fair point, though it would seem that jck disagrees
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[13:11:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Document Discussions
[13:11:34] <Barry Leiba> I think John's point is more that *if* you put up a slide, it ought to be readable.
[13:11:36] <mnot> pretty green blue wave.
[13:11:46] <dcrocker> a quick summary, in the style that Murray did, seemed pretty reasonable to me.
[13:11:50] <Barry Leiba> My sense is that he'd have been just as happy not to have the slide at all.
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[13:12:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Guidelines and Registration
[13:12:30] <Barry Leiba> I have to admit that it's always been a pet peeve of mine to hear "I know you can't read this, but..."
[13:12:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Dave Thaler
[13:12:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Guidelines and Registration
[13:12:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Status
[13:12:36] <dcrocker> Given universal access to the slides online, a summary slide that isn't worth reading can still be useful... because it summarizes stuff.
[13:12:48] <Barry Leiba> Dave: That's true.
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[13:13:06] <Barry Leiba> IMO, such slides should be skipped over with a comment that it's in the deck as reference material.
[13:13:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: #28: domain schemes and ownership change
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[13:13:26] <Barry Leiba> YOMD, of course.
[13:13:54] <dcrocker> barry - right.  But I think that Murray spent less than a minute and only commented on some specific points.  
[13:14:00] <Barry Leiba> Yes.
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[13:14:53] <Eric Burger> For the mic: I was going to write a draft for a URI scheme for "application deep links". I didn't make the draft cut-off, as Dave gave me the challenge the day before the -00 cut-off. Is there interest in my putting something together, or would that be a draft no one uses?
[13:15:36] <Eric Burger> (don't read until after Dave's presentation, as it is tangential to his current draft, not a question on the draft)
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[13:16:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: #25: URI scheme name conflict contradict
[13:16:51] Jim Galvin joins the room
[13:17:35] <Eric Burger> [If anyone asks, the idea is a single applaunch: type scheme with thousands of apps, instead of thousands of proprietary x-msft-<uid> schemes]
[13:17:53] <Eric Burger> [apps = stuff to the right of the colon]
[13:18:13] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: #18: Approver of conflicting scheme name
[13:19:13] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: #25: URI scheme name conflict contradict
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[13:22:41] <Eric Burger> Do we really need all of these permutations written down? Would not "Designated Expert" work? The IESG can ALWAYS jump in.
[13:23:20] <Eric Burger> The more we write down about the legal definitions of who can do what, the more likely a corner case will pop up.
[13:23:21] <dcrocker> Eric's point makes sense to me; it's reasonable and efficient. (Do we allow that combination?)
[13:23:49] <Eric Burger> Don't Designated Experts ALWAYS step out with a conflict of interest?
[13:24:06] <Eric Burger> I don't think this needs to be put into EVERY document that talks about Designated Experts.
[13:24:07] <alexey.melnikov> Rcording for posterity: Suggestion to add a backup Designated Expert in case the Primary expert has a conflict of interest.
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[13:24:24] <Eric Burger> thanks
[13:24:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: #16: Scheme prefixes (1/2)
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[13:24:50] <Eric Burger> Aha: My comments from above can be read now :-)
[13:25:21] <Eric Burger> [because it addresses this issue. Please wait for him to do slide 2/2]
[13:25:28] <Barry Leiba> ack
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[13:27:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: #16: Scheme prefixes (2/2)
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[13:29:45] <Eric Burger> With all the people Microsoft sends to the IETF and W3C, why did they not use ms-xbl:://<guid>/mumble?
[13:30:55] <Eric Burger> Reasonale
[13:30:58] <Eric Burger> I'll write something up
[13:31:39] <Eric Burger> Dave is 100% right, which is why I will write something up.
[13:32:21] <Eric Burger> Thanks all.
[13:33:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[13:33:13] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: The text/markdown
[13:33:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Sean Leonard
[13:33:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: The text/markdown
[13:34:04] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Overview
[13:34:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: About Markdown
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[13:36:50] doug.otis joins the room
[13:37:25] Barry Leiba notes that whenever people come up with an informal thing (such as markdown), someone later invariably looks to do something more formal with it
[13:38:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Example
[13:39:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Proposal (as of today)
[13:40:18] <dcrocker> Only when it's successful.
[13:40:26] <Barry Leiba> dc: true
[13:41:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Proposal (as of today): Parameters
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[13:44:11] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Comments and discussion
[13:44:34] <Martin Thomson> my comment that isn't mic-worthy: how on earth can you have a REQUIRED parameter with a default?
[13:44:45] <Barry Leiba> That's what I got up to ask.
[13:44:48] <Martin Thomson> :)
[13:44:51] <Barry Leiba> And I also decided it wasn't mic-worthy.
[13:44:53] <Martin Thomson> I thought that might be it
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[13:45:39] <Eric Burger> You might be able to get Gruber to allow you to write an Individual, Informational draft.
[13:45:55] <Martin Thomson> a whole new working group sounds right, this seems bigger than JSON
[13:46:16] <m&m> hear haer
[13:46:46] <Martin Thomson> defining what the format is sounds challenging
[13:46:58] <Barry Leiba> formats are
[13:47:11] <Martin Thomson> (understatement)
[13:47:33] <Martin Thomson> I might suggest perhaps avoiding that entirely when defining the MIME media type
[13:47:36] <yoav.nir> The thing is, there’s a lot of people in the world who *know* what markdown is. It’s what you use for wikis such as Wikipedia. I don’t think the IETF can tell them differently.
[13:47:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Proposal (as of today)
[13:47:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Proposal (as of today): Parameters
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[13:48:06] <Martin Thomson> yoav.nir: that's the point Joe is making here too
[13:49:25] <yoav.nir> Yeah. JSON is pretty much the same everywhere, so formalizing works. Each wiki has something slightly different. I don’t know if unifying mark-down is a worthy goal, but even if it is, I don’t think the IETF is the place to do it.
[13:50:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[13:50:49] <Martin Thomson> a "here be dragons" sign seems like the only useful statement the IETF can make
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[13:51:07] <Barry Leiba> "Here be flagons," is better.
[13:51:15] <Eric Burger> <burp>
[13:51:16] <m&m> it would not be the first time
[13:51:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: draft-nottingham-safe-hint
[13:51:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Mark Nottingham
[13:51:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: draft-nottingham-safe-hint
[13:51:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: 2
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[13:52:12] <yoav.nir> We can standardize a content-type, and leave it to the content providers and browsers to figure out what mark-down means.
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[13:52:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: 3
[13:52:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: 6
[13:52:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: 7
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[13:53:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: GET /foo.html HTTP/1.1
[13:53:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: The safe HTTP Preference
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[13:54:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: The safeHTTP Preference
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[13:55:05] <sftcd> so a 1 bit http header could never be controversial? (DNT:-)
[13:55:43] <Martin Thomson> sftcd: depends on the bit, the pink ones have all sorts of problems
[13:55:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: The safeHTTP Preference
[13:55:47] <Eric Burger> Still sounds like the Inverse Evil Bit
[13:58:20] <yoav.nir> The sites have much finer granularity than just safe/non-safe. Which pages on Wikipedia are going to be considered non-safe?  This is especially true for sites that serve multiple countries/cultures
[13:58:23] <dcrocker> Eric -- Not really.  It's trying to provide protocol support for a common, existing mechanism/construct.  That it defines 'safe' as 'whatever your site means by it' helps quite a bit.
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[13:59:26] <Eric Burger> Actually, hearing that gobs of browsers and servers are doing it already, I have no problem with this progressing.
[13:59:28] <Barry Leiba> Yoav: you're right, but I think the high-order bit is that this is useful as it is, even if it's not extended for more richness.
[13:59:58] <Barry Leiba> It doesn't have to answer all the questions.  It only has to answer enough of them to be useful.
[13:59:59] <Martin Thomson> extending it might do more damage than good
[14:00:07] <Eric Burger> If we spend five years perfecting it or arguing if it is useful, the rest of the world will find the IETF not useful.
[14:00:21] <Barry Leiba> Да
[14:00:22] <Martin Thomson> I'd go further and say that it WILL do more damage than good
[14:00:24] <Martin Thomson> :)
[14:00:30] <Andrew Sullivan> If we spend 5 years perfecting it, it will be the evil bit
[14:00:48] <Eric Burger> Agreed.
[14:00:50] <Barry Leiba> If we spend 5 yeas perfecting it, WE will be the evil bits.
[14:00:58] <Eric Burger> [Barry said what I was thinking]
[14:01:12] <Andrew Sullivan> No, we're already the evil bits, by even talking about whether to do this!
[14:01:24] <Kathleen Moriarty> Hmm, I was thinking along the lines of Yoav from experience as web proxy firewalls divide content into categories, would this evolve into that or would that be prevented?  Examples include 'unknown sites' meant to block new sites put up with malicious content, then gambling, porn, and other categories that certain folks would want blocked.  Obviously, no one would say their site is unknown, otherwise their malicious code wouldn't get used, but maybe some of the other categories would work.  It relies on the site and motivations will vary, but could be very helpful.
[14:01:35] <yoav.nir> I’m not opposed. I’m thinking how I would mark a website (if I had one). It’s easy for porn sites or Nickelodeon. Really hard for something like Wikipedia
[14:02:00] <Barry Leiba> I think that if we want more than what this does, someone should propose a different preference for that.
[14:02:06] <Barry Leiba> Then we can see whether it gets adopted.
[14:02:09] <Andrew Sullivan> +1
[14:02:12] <doug.otis> Our company offers such filtering. We only offer 63 bits.
[14:02:20] <Barry Leiba> He-he-he
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[14:02:31] <Kathleen Moriarty> Barry, agreed, lots of thought would be needed
[14:02:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[14:03:04] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: json-home and http-problem
[14:03:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Mark Nottingham
[14:03:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: json-home and http-problem
[14:03:21] <yoav.nir> Once you have a lot of bits, you have to also consider cultural differences. Then you can’t ever get it right.
[14:03:52] Eliot Lear joins the room
[14:04:21] <Kathleen Moriarty> +1 Yoav, and only certain bits make sense as the site has to be motivated to use it
[14:04:22] <Andrew Sullivan> @Yoav: surely what we need are culture headers.  Then we can fully localize everything.
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[14:04:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: HTTP Problem Details
[14:04:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: HTTP Problem Details
[14:04:38] <Andrew Sullivan> (I have clearly spent too much time in i18n land lately)
[14:05:25] <doug.otis> @yoav.nir In our case, many of the bits reflect cultural differences.  Perhaps this could be combined with some type of Geo code.
[14:05:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: HTTP Problem Details
[14:06:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: HTTP Problem Details
[14:07:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Home Documents for HTTP APIs
[14:07:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: !
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[14:08:29] <sftcd> from the back of the room and with crappy eyesight that could have been xml
[14:08:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Home Documents for HTTP APIs
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[14:14:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> JSON Patch Redux
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[14:16:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> draft-hansen-mdn-3798bis
[14:17:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Applications Area General Meeting starting now
[14:18:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> WG Reports
[14:18:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> just FYI, a Meetecho room with integrated slides and audio+video is available http://www.meetecho.com/ietf90/appsawg
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[14:26:38] <presnick> Oh, did someone talk about PRECIS? I may have been asleep.
[14:27:01] <Andrew Sullivan> yes
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[14:27:23] <presnick> Oh, good. Did someone mention that I'm the roadblock for framework at the moment?
[14:27:47] Julian joins the room
[14:27:55] <presnick> (And Marc has kicked my rear to get that unstuck this week.)
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[14:29:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> New Working Groups
[14:29:53] <doug.otis> @barryleiba Why not consider the user of CBOR? http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7049
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[14:30:26] <Barry Leiba> CBOR isn't for describing payload format in a spec.  It's for encoding the payload on the wire.
[14:32:25] <hildjj> Doug: CBOR-interested people have talked about similar problems.
[14:32:58] <hildjj> the goal (for me anyway) is a suggestion for how to write protocol docs that use JSON or CBOR.
[14:33:18] <cyrus> Barry: FYI tzdist - the draft-douglass-timezone-service draft uses draft-newton-json-content-rules which is also an expired JSON schema draft. I really, really want to see the JSON WG tackle this problem….
[14:34:01] <hildjj> cyrus: we may need some help to make it look like there is enough energy to complete something.
[14:35:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> BoF Sessions
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[14:36:11] <cyrus> If tzdist becomes a WG (hopefully) then it will want this problem tackled - maybe that will be enough impetus along with PAWS?
[14:36:25] <Barry Leiba> Peut-être.
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[14:36:45] <Barry Leiba> We have at least three proposals.
[14:37:21] <Barry Leiba> There's Andy Newton's draft, Kris Zyp's (which is what PAWS is using), and my un-drafted one that REPUTE used.
[14:40:12] <cyrus> Right - I’ve not looked in detail at the others. One question is whether we want just one, or whether several may make sense depending on the nature of the protocol being described. Also not that jcard and jcal did this using ABNF - yet another possibility (though I don’t really like that one).
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[14:41:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: The Trouble with Transports
[14:41:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Joe Hildebrand
[14:41:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: The Trouble with Transports
[14:41:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Things we need to admit
[14:41:36] <Martin Thomson> ah Joe, you crack me up: "this new protocol. SCTP"
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[14:43:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Goals
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[14:43:38] <doug.otis> That still leaves UDP encapsulated SCTP?
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[14:47:45] <Eric Burger> Right, SCTP encapsulated in UDP encapsulated in SCTP, running over MPLS over ATM
[14:48:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Design Constraints
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[14:49:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: General approach:
[14:51:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Interactions with other IETF work
[14:52:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[14:52:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: EMail Privacy Efforts
[14:52:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Dave Crocker
[14:52:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: EMail Privacy Efforts
[14:52:39] <cyrus> Audio just cut-out. Any one else hear anything?
[14:52:40] <Martin Thomson> and I thought that Joe's font was bad
[14:52:52] <kaduk> I am sill getting room noise.
[14:52:59] <Eric Burger> Dave is always on :-)
[14:53:01] <cyrus> Ah, OK - I hear Dave now.
[14:53:09] <Eric Burger> I'm seeing doubledouble
[14:53:22] <Eric Burger> Love the colors, too!
[14:53:24] <Andrew Sullivan> One might wonder whether there is a subliminal message in putting up slides for the IETF participants that assumes they're cartoon-reading children.
[14:53:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Threats
[14:53:51] <Andrew Sullivan> No, that was bad and mean and unnecessary of me, and I hereby apologise.
[14:53:52] <Eric Burger> If people want easy to read...
[14:54:08] <Eric Burger> Me, too. Next insult we can hurl?
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[14:55:06] <hildjj> doug: yes, SCTP over UDP is one of the things.  the question is if it's the only one of the things.  if so, midboxes can DPI SCTP and set up return contexts by policy.  if not, it might be useful to allow multiple new-transport layer protocols to do explicit firewall traversal the same way, in order to increase the chances of a midbox implementing the necessary foo
[14:55:54] <Martin Thomson> SCTP/DTLS/UDP/IP multiplexed above the UDP layer with SRTP/UDP/IP and STUN/UDP/IP
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[14:56:40] <Eric Burger> But we already have RFC 3252. How could we forget the XML encoding?
[14:56:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Basic Email Privacy Components
[14:57:21] <hildjj> re BLOAT, deployable is one of the main requirements
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[14:59:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Vectors
[14:59:48] Brian Trammell joins the room
[15:00:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: TLS is good hygiene, but...
[15:00:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Vectors
[15:00:48] Kathleen Moriarty joins the room
[15:01:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: TLS is good hygiene, but...
[15:03:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Long-Term Poor Adoption
[15:03:08] <doug.otis> @hildjj SCTP over UDP was the original design.  It was changed into having its own transport.  Some vendors considered such could threaten their install base and refused support. In that light, it would have been better to have proceeded with the initial design.  Offloading error checking is less easily managed, but good error checking is now found in CPU coprocessors.
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[15:04:17] <Martin Thomson> we've been /trying/ to do key management for a while
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[15:05:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: (Some) Current Projects
[15:07:32] Julian leaves the room: Computer went to sleep
[15:07:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: (Some) Current Projects
[15:09:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: Basic Email Message Components
[15:11:25] <Martin Thomson> content includes some header fields; HTTP makes this distinction, I think that they are called entity header fields, and they include content-type and content-length
[15:12:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: Key Management
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[15:13:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: Example work
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[15:17:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[15:17:51] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: draft-otis-tpa-label
[15:17:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Douglas Otis
[15:17:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: draft-otis-tpa-label
[15:18:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: dmarc   tpa-label
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[15:19:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Trusting From header fields
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[15:21:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Agile Defense of the From
[15:21:07] <hildjj> did he say what "TPA" means?
[15:21:41] <kaduk> looks like "third-party applications", but I didn't hear him say it
[15:21:54] <john.levine> for notes, when's the Thursday session for the email security stuff?
[15:22:32] <john.levine> Third-Party Authorization Label
[15:23:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Protection of Privacy
[15:24:08] <Barry Leiba> John: SAAG is Thursday, 1300-1500
[15:24:14] <john.levine> ok tnx
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[15:26:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Very Low Overhead
[15:26:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: General Overview
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[15:27:14] <Kathleen Moriarty> We're fine with out-of-the-box thinking in terms of how to solve the e2e security problems for messaging.  Like Dave said, it's early, so ideas and brainstorming is encouraged at this stage.
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[15:28:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Lukewarm acceptance is more bewilderi
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[15:30:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> meeting is over, recordings to be made available soon! http://ietf90.conf.meetecho.com
[15:30:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
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