IETF
appsawg@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, November 4, 2013< ^ >
stpeter has set the subject to: Applications Area Working Group | visit xmpp:apparea@jabber.ietf.org?join
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[17:04:04] <fenton> Hearing onloy a little background noise on the audio stream. Is anyone speaking into a microphone yet?
[17:04:14] <Dave Thaler> no
[17:04:27] <Dave Thaler> people still filing into the room
[17:04:30] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> we're still messing about with the a/v
[17:04:30] sftcd joins the room
[17:04:41] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> audio should be streaming now
[17:04:51] <fenton> Very distorted
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[17:05:16] <barryleiba> If someone has a client that lets you set the room topic, please set the topic to "IETF 88 Applications Area meeting".
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[17:05:29] <barryleiba> Jim, still distorted?
[17:05:34] <SM> Yes
[17:05:37] <fenton> yes
[17:05:56] <barryleiba> I'll contact the trouble desk.
[17:05:56] <edwin.freed> Indecipherable.
[17:05:56] fenton has set the subject to: IETF 88 Applications Area meeting
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[17:06:38] <fenton> better!
[17:07:22] <barryleiba> Ha... I just sent the note.  Should I send a "never mind"?
[17:08:40] <fenton> The audio level is still a little low, it seems if you turn it up it only distorts more. So there's some amp in the chain that is overdriven, but need more gain later.
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[17:10:00] <fenton> Yes, can hear it but level is a little low
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[17:10:41] <edwin.freed> Level is so low I can't make it out.
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[17:10:46] <netwerkeddude> agreed level is low
[17:10:56] <netwerkeddude> esp for room mic
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[17:11:59] <fenton> this mic louder but somewhat distorted
[17:12:05] <netwerkeddude> same here
[17:12:19] <cyrus> Still impossible to hear anything useful….
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[17:13:08] <synp> Alexey and Barry both used the wireless mic.
[17:14:48] <cyrus> I am getting absolutely nothing right now on http://ietf88streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf882.m3u
[17:15:02] <SM> The volume is very low
[17:15:48] <netwerkeddude> volume is pretty low for me too -- any way to turn it up at the soundboard in the room there?
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[17:20:05] <netwerkeddude> audio went silent
[17:20:11] <netwerkeddude> back
[17:20:42] <cyrus> I still have it but I have to turn the volume up so load that when new mail arrives - the “boing” almost blows my ear drums apart!
[17:21:24] <netwerkeddude> time to turn off system sounds ?
[17:21:40] <Bjoern> Perhaps that is an anti-surveillance measure to fend off intelligence analysts listening in...
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[17:22:40] <cyrus> Yeah, I have turned the alert volume down a lot now.
[17:23:02] <barryleiba> Have to deal with the low volume for now, until Verilan comes in to fix.
[17:23:02] <Karen O'Donoghue> audio help is on the way
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[17:24:17] <netwerkeddude> k thx
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[17:26:31] <cyrus> Suddenly very quite.
[17:26:43] <netwerkeddude> quiet
[17:26:57] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> audio still being worked on I hope
[17:27:16] <Ulrich Herberg> could someone please write whenever a new presentation starts? I am following another WG right now (and thus cannot follow the audio), but will present in the "New WGs" in the APPAREA slot and want to make sure to arrive in time.
[17:27:43] <barryleiba> Ulrich: will try to do that, and will certainly let you know when the "new WG" segment starts.
[17:27:51] <Ulrich Herberg> thanks, Barry!
[17:28:33] <fenton> Audio level lower yet, but I assume that's the audio help in progress.
[17:28:53] <tlr> +1 to Klensin
[17:30:05] <fenton> oooh, audio getting better
[17:30:47] Ted leaves the room
[17:30:55] <barryleiba> Now on MNot's doc, "get off my lawn".
[17:31:22] <netwerkeddude> audio gone
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[17:31:28] <cyrus> I still have it.
[17:31:46] <netwerkeddude> back, but ears gone....
[17:32:15] <Karen O'Donoghue> noc reports that audio in georgia b is now fixed…
[17:32:39] <netwerkeddude> will have to hear thru room mics to fully verify I spose
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[17:32:52] <cyrus> No - the volume seems to be varying from loud to soft. I can’t really hear anyone but the main speaker.
[17:33:07] <netwerkeddude> yeah, it just attenuated again
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[17:33:28] <fenton> just faded out almost entirely
[17:33:44] <cyrus> And now its loud again….
[17:34:25] <barryleiba> We try to keep it fun.
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[17:36:53] <barryleiba> Murray finds "gadgety noises" distracting.
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[17:39:44] <netwerkeddude> can't hear room mic
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[17:40:22] <barryleiba> Karen, are you following up with audio comments?
[17:41:55] <netwerkeddude> front of room mics have faded way down too.  
[17:42:47] <Karen O'Donoghue> i was ...
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[17:43:37] <barryleiba> (just didn't want to have us both doing it)
[17:44:01] <Karen O'Donoghue> they are working on it again
[17:44:05] <Franck Martin> "don't do it" otherwise someone call the RFC police? I agree it is best to suggest what to do...
[17:44:39] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> pete ;)
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[17:46:31] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> I agree if it's a good do it and do it quickly
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[17:47:18] <cyrus> Is John at the same mic as the previous speakers, because I can’t hear him at all, but the others were just audible.
[17:47:28] <barryleiba> No, diff mic
[17:47:35] <Karen O'Donoghue> no…
[17:47:44] <barryleiba> He's moving
[17:47:56] <cyrus> Thanks.
[17:48:21] <cyrus> OK, he is louder now, thank you.
[17:48:28] <barryleiba> Velcro
[17:48:37] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> yep other mic works better - that'll get worked on
[17:49:57] <barryleiba> Now on Dave Thaler's doc.
[17:50:09] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> I think if it's useful do it and then update it later if something new comes up ..
[17:50:18] <barryleiba> URI scheme registration process
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[18:09:02] <m&m> Mark's idea of a "applaunch:" scheme is great in theory, we would need just about every browser to implement it, and ideally in a way that doesn't cripple what's already out there
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[18:10:29] <mnot> It’d be interesting to see if you could layer it in by having a generic dispatcher that new applications registered themselves with; that should layer in pretty transparently. The hard part might be mobile OSs...
[18:10:54] <mnot> e.g., applaunch:com.example.foo
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[18:11:33] <Ted> @mnot Can you clarify what the mobile specific issue is?
[18:11:46] Ned Freed joins the room
[18:12:23] <m&m> it might be that we accept some ickiness so that the existing APIs (registerProtocolHandler()) are still usable
[18:12:41] <m&m> changing the API is going to be awfully painful
[18:12:57] <Ned Freed> FWIW, I am sufficiently inundated with media type reviews that we're working to get an additional reviewer up to speed
[18:13:16] <mnot> The problem is that IANA needs very detailed instructions, and baking them into an RFC is not a very realistic way to do it. We need dialogue with IANA.
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[18:13:58] <mnot> So he’d like to boil a number of oceans in a serial fashion...
[18:14:18] <mnot> I violently disagree. Having 15 different registry procedures is going to be a nightmare for people who aren’t IETF insiders.
[18:14:34] <stpeter> I thought the mic line was closed :-)
[18:14:51] <Ted> It was closed after PHB.
[18:14:54] <mnot> We need a WG here. Or at least some coordination.
[18:14:56] <stpeter> ah, ok
[18:15:08] <m&m> mnot: I agree
[18:15:16] <stpeter> there's a column in the way so I can't see anyone but the person at the mic
[18:15:23] <mnot> ... and past experience has shown that having informal groups doesn’t get enough impetus.
[18:15:32] stpeter nods to mnot
[18:15:34] <resnick> @mnot: Write me a charter.
[18:15:35] <SM> Some coordination would help.  Else there will be so many ways that it will be confusing.
[18:16:01] <mnot> What is PHB on about?
[18:16:03] <stpeter> "write me a charter, sing me a song..."
[18:16:09] <mnot> heh
[18:16:09] <resnick> ;)
[18:16:53] <barryleiba> Ulrich: Come on down!
[18:17:19] <resnick> More seriously: I think this is totally doable quickly if we've got a few motivated folks.
[18:17:29] <resnick> Though I've had that thought before.
[18:17:31] <Ned Freed> Another FWIW: The quality of registrations from groups quite separate from the IETF is quite high. A recent bunch from the automotive folks is a case in point.
[18:17:50] <fenton> Hi, Ralph
[18:19:58] <barryleiba> Ulrich Herberg: (confirming that you got the message... into the "new WGs" segment now)
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[18:25:40] <mnot> Come play in the straw: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/charter-appreg
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[18:27:07] <mnot> (and feel free to edit)
[18:27:14] <synp> How about making this a design team of appsawg rather than a real working group?
[18:27:26] <mnot> that could work
[18:27:38] <mnot> I think the main thing is to keep it focused by identifying deliverables asap
[18:27:46] Bjoern gets "Uncaught exception: SyntaxError: JSON.parse: ≻晡㨢氢捯..." there ... oh now it's working...
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[18:29:49] <netwerkeddude> on Homenet section now?
[18:29:52] <mnot> y
[18:29:59] <barryleiba> da
[18:31:45] <netwerkeddude> are any of the areas good at providing advice to other areas ?
[18:32:47] <barryleiba> Sec is probably best, and I don't think that's saying a lot.
[18:32:54] <stpeter> netwerkeddude: good question
[18:33:30] <SM> It's because security is a BCP and nobody understands security anyway. :-)
[18:34:05] <Ned Freed> I have to say I find it … interesting … that back when a similar dynamic existed between apps and security, with security in the advisory role, the "blame" was assigned entirely to the advisee, not the advisor.
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[18:35:41] <Andrew Sullivan> I think that may be the IETF Godwin's law, not Moore's!
[18:35:44] <mnot> WRT applaunch URIs - there is already <http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-app-uri-20130516/>. Would be interesting to see if it could meet the use case. The only thing that doesn’t look great is its use of UUIDs, but that may be OK.
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[18:38:35] <m&m> mnot: interesting, and it might be a good starting point
[18:39:20] <mnot> I can’t help but think that part of the problem is that “apps” is a bit unfocused... we have some Web stuff, some e-mail stuff, some other stuff, but no single view of what “good” apps is.
[18:40:02] <mnot> Maybe we should split APPS into WEB and EMAIL   /me ducks
[18:40:10] tlr joins the room
[18:40:46] <SM> Good idea, we will send Web to the transport layer:)
[18:40:56] <mnot> transfer, peter transfer!
[18:41:03] barryleiba kicks mnot low, so ducking doesn't help
[18:41:06] <mnot> oh, sorry, sm..
[18:41:10] <netwerkeddude> > Security of Applications (PSA, Alexey; 50 mins)
[18:41:12] mnot ouch
[18:42:00] <SM> Mark, Apps is a bunch of things.  Even mail can be split.
[18:42:43] <mnot> sure, you can split things. The question is where are the splits in perspective?
[18:42:46] <m&m> it is probably necessary to first determine how much of the problem can actually be solved
[18:43:04] <cyrus> What as that URI Peter mentioned?
[18:43:13] <tlr> https://xmpp.net/
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[18:43:32] <SM> Well, I would not say split.  I would suggest trying to get at least an Apps understanding instead of having small groups operating on their own.
[18:43:35] <cyrus> Thanks.
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[18:44:47] <mnot> *shrug* just thinking out loud. I notice we already have to make a distinction when doing reviews, e.g., “get a Web person to review that”, “get an e-mail person to review that...”
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[18:46:30] <SM> Mark, yes, and there are cases where there isn't an apps-wide view then.
[18:46:41] <barryleiba> App has always had a set of things.  Used to be mail and ldap and ... etc.  Now it's web and json and i18n and ... etc.
[18:46:53] <barryleiba> Can't split every sub-thing out into its own area.
[18:46:58] <mnot> all will be web
[18:47:06] <mnot> /mnot did I say that out loud?
[18:47:20] <barryleiba> No, Mark, it's this way:
[18:47:28] <barryleiba> All.  Will.  Be.  Web.
[18:47:31] <barryleiba> Resistance is futile.
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[18:47:47] <tlr> "will be"?
[18:47:53] <mnot> (insert obligatory photoshop of TimBL with borg overlay)
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[18:48:08] <resnick> @tlr: spam is not web. Mostly.
[18:48:14] <mnot> LOL
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[18:49:17] <richard.barnes> the counter to dcrocker's assertion of hop-by-hop is draft-miller-xmpp-e2e
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[18:52:12] <SM> :D
[18:52:18] <cyrus> Claps here!
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[18:55:19] <netwerkeddude>    - Use of certs in Email (John Levine)
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[18:56:14] <Ned Freed> In our experience what "works badly" with AUTH EXTERNAL isn't clients or servers doing it badly, it's dealing with software that refuses to do it at all.
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[18:56:33] <Ned Freed> And there's always some political reason to support such crap.
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[18:59:51] <netwerkeddude>    - Email 2 (Alexey Melnikov)
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[19:01:05] <Franck Martin> no cipher recommendation for DKIM either...
[19:01:17] <Franck Martin> well up to date I mean
[19:02:06] <cyrus> Why should the choice of ciphers, TLS versions etc be different fro email vs any other service (http, xmpp etc)?
[19:02:18] <richard.barnes> cyrus: exactly what i was thinking
[19:02:44] <richard.barnes> seems like we need one doc that says "this is the flavor of TLS you really should use"
[19:02:54] <resnick> And how exactly does an email implementer choose a cipher suite in the first place? Isn't this going to strictly come from whatever crypto library you're using?
[19:03:14] <resnick> I.e., how is this possibly an email protocol issue?
[19:03:30] <cyrus> More than likely - but the choice might be configurable by the admin (though they probably just use the vendor’s default).
[19:03:32] <SM> Pete, it is basically the same library for the security stuff
[19:03:50] <Franck Martin> there is the choice of the cypher and the verification of the certificate and the result presented to the app
[19:03:56] <barryleiba> Both ends need to (1) know what the other is using and (b) support it.
[19:04:19] <tlr> It’s debatable whether it’s a per-protocol or a TLS issue.
[19:04:21] <Franck Martin> I agree, there should be this is the colour of cypher you should use
[19:04:27] <Adam Montville> There may be high level policy drivers behind cipher suite choice as well.  Crypto library probably narrows the field, but policy may narrow further.
[19:04:47] <tlr> But basically, there are enough options that *actually* settling on a decent cipher suite is a messy proposition.  See Web.
[19:04:59] <Franck Martin> but SMTP/IMAP/POP barely verify certificate and how it should be linked to domain presneted in the email message...
[19:05:00] <Adam Montville> How keys are managed is probably more important in terms of app-specific needs than the suite being used.
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[19:06:12] <fenton> Are slides for this section online?
[19:06:16] <Chris Newman> The drafts Alexey is discussing are: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-newman-email-deep-00 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moore-email-tls-00 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-melnikov-email-tls-certs-01
[19:06:35] <stpeter> fenton: I don't see them at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/88/materials.html#wg-appsawg
[19:06:57] <fenton> Me either.  I'll listen more intently :)
[19:09:14] <netwerkeddude>    - Email 3 (Keith Moore)
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[19:15:38] <barryleiba> And he can do that on one slide?
[19:16:10] <netwerkeddude>    - SIP (Jon Peterson)
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[19:17:54] <sftcd> there's gonna be no time for discussion here - what do folks think about forming a wg to handle these foo-over-tls issues?
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[19:19:25] <Andrew Sullivan> @sftcd: that doesn't sound like a bad idea if there's really commonality to it (it sounds like there may be, from these presos)
[19:19:29] <Ned Freed> There's sufficient work to do to have one just for email.
[19:20:03] <Ned Freed> I have no real opinion about whether you want to have separate groups 1 big 1.
[19:20:31] <barryleiba> I think it's important to work together on them, even if we have to put out multiple protocol things.
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[19:20:49] <barryleiba> I'd favour one, but can easily be convinced that that's a bad idea.
[19:20:55] <netwerkeddude>    - HTTP (Mark Nottingham)
[19:21:40] <barryleiba> Issues that have been brought up in one presentation this morning can very well apply to the others.  If we separate, we risk missing the connections.
[19:22:06] <mnot> WRT e-mail and TLS: for about a year, I’ve had a filter that colours e-mail yellow when the hop previous to my MX uses TLS.
[19:22:23] <mnot> The good news is that a LOT of e-mail is encrypted; something like 70-80%, including a lot of the spam I get
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[19:22:40] <Andrew Sullivan> @barry: I agree
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[19:23:37] <Ned Freed> I agree with Keith - the DANE email work needs to be moved to a different group.
[19:24:06] <mnot> The bad news is that mail from the Secretariat and our Security ADs’ servers isn’t encrypted :)
[19:24:53] sftcd doesn't control my mail server, but fair cop
[19:25:16] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> I'm signing all my email now - of course I run my own CA :)
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[19:26:06] <mnot> hmm, I got “email address mismatch” on the last mail you sent me
[19:26:08] <barryleiba> So no one trusts your root cert, eh?
[19:26:25] <mnot> and it’s not over TLS
[19:26:37] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> hmmm
[19:26:42] <mnot> Of course, in some jurisdictions, signing your e-mail actually increases your legal exposure...
[19:26:47] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> I trust it but I gotta get it to you
[19:26:50] <Ned Freed> As I have pointed out previously, enabling opportunistic TLS for SMTP isn't as easy as flipping a switch. You have to deal with the fact that TLS
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[19:27:11] <Ned Freed> negotiations can fail, in which case you have to try a new connection. Not all MTAs have support for that.
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[19:27:25] <Franck Martin> also TLS is expensive
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[19:27:49] <Franck Martin> especially openssl which is not well multi-threaded... (so I was told)
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[19:28:27] <cyrus> “Happy Eyeballs” for tls? - yuck!
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[19:28:29] <Ned Freed> Sorry, I don't buy the expense argument any more. As my survey of IMAP usage makes clear, almost all of the big ISPs don't have a problem supporting TLS in the IMAP case.
[19:28:52] <barryleiba> Agreed on expense... Obsolete argument
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[19:29:16] <Ned Freed> But the problem of servers that advertise but don't actually do TLS properly is real.
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[19:29:23] <Franck Martin> I can't move to TLS due to the expensive argument
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[19:29:55] <Ned Freed> And this is for how many users?
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[19:30:02] <fenton> Thanks...audio was quite good the latter part of the meeting.
[19:30:16] <Ned Freed> No, actually the audio sucked from beginning to end.
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[19:30:56] <Ned Freed> I was only able to hear it at all due to the use of some *very* expensive Clipsch gear.
[19:31:43] <Ned Freed> And speaking as someone who has done professional audio work for many years, the IETF needs to learn the meaning of the term "sound check".
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[19:31:49] <Ned Freed> It's nothing short of disgraceful.
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[19:32:09] <fenton> Hmm, my gear was pretty cheap. VLC on Ubuntu, cheap Yamaha speakers.
[19:32:23] <cyrus> Yes - there ought to be some time set aside on Sunday to sound check each room with remote participants - we can’t be using the Monday morning sessions to do that.
[19:32:45] <Ned Freed> Sorry, if it doesn't work with just my laptop - and it most definitely did not - then it sucked. Period.
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[19:32:47] <fenton> Cyrus, agree. The Monday sessions shouldn't be penalized that way
[19:33:19] <Ned Freed> The kid playing with the mic right now is pretty funny though.
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[19:33:31] <fenton> Yes, Murray's kid, I think
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[19:37:47] <Ned Freed> Oh, and in my case my cheap external speakers might have worked. But it's beside the point: Can't use them in an office environment. Have to use a headset of some sort, and the Apple earbuds were definitely not good enough.
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