IETF
apparea
apparea@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, 26 March 2012< ^ >
stpeter has set the subject to: IETF Applications Area
Room Configuration

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[07:00:48] <resnick> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/materials.html
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[07:05:28] <hildjj> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/minutes
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[07:10:58] <barryleiba> Who is taking notes for minutes?
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[07:11:10] <hildjj> I'm doing it in the etherpad.
[07:11:26] <hildjj> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/minutes
[07:11:30] <hildjj> could use some help
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[07:12:06] <barryleiba> Thanks, Joe. If anyone would join Joe in etherpad, and help with the notes, please do so.
[07:12:31] <hildjj> Make sure to set your nickname in the etherpad, please.
[07:12:45] <hildjj> click on the person icon in the top right
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[07:20:55] <hildjj> who was the speaker?
[07:21:12] <resnick> Thomas Roesler you mean?
[07:21:18] <resnick> Or after him?
[07:21:20] <hildjj> no, before hannes
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[07:34:13] <Ned Freed> General area?
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[07:34:38] <Jacky Yao11 (Health Yao)> now is appsawg
[07:35:05] <S M> This is more General area material
[07:35:13] <Ned Freed> Exactly.
[07:35:32] <Ned Freed> Seems to me that's the place for it if you really want cross-area review.
[07:35:51] <S M> Yes, and transport area and a few otehr areas use IANA
[07:36:35] <Ned Freed> Some of the largest registries are non-apps.
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[07:40:35] <Klensin> Mic: If Hapiana is moved to appawg, wit h its current S/N ratio, and only a few peopel _really_ interested, it will make the S/N ration in appsawg worse, not improve the quality or quantity of discussion and review. Genarea could be worse -- not cross-area, but isolaed
[07:40:59] <resnick> I'll mic you
[07:41:05] <Klensin> thx
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[07:44:06] <Klensin> Yes, moving it to Genarea would eliminate the S/N in appawg -- my "didn't solve problem" was about getting better review, etc.
[07:46:43] <Ned Freed> Nonrepudiation of delivery is a *much* more difficult problem than most of these systems allow for.
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[07:47:58] <resnick> So, it is not so much that Internet email doesn't have the facilities, but they are not all put together appropriately in a single package.
[07:48:20] <Ned Freed> Well, it depends on what set of capabilities you're after.
[07:48:47] <Ned Freed> We've got lots of stuff for nonrepudiation of origin - so many that the problem is figuring out the one to use.
[07:49:24] <resnick> Non-repudiation of receipt could be done with the same mechanisms over MDN.
[07:50:09] <Ned Freed> Er, no.
[07:50:15] <resnick> ?
[07:50:28] <Ned Freed> The problem is you have to have a trusted agent to generate the MDN.
[07:50:29] <Klensin> Mic: Agree with Ned (and please incorporate his comment). The other issue is that a lot of the non-repudiation problem is a national law and recognition problem. Not clear that IETF is the right place to solve this. I'd much rather see a solid job comparing approaches than yet another one.
[07:50:45] <resnick> Ah, dammit, right.
[07:50:51] <Ned Freed> Emphatic agreement with John.
[07:51:24] <Randall Gellens> You probably also need to be able to say that if you don't get a delivery receipt, then the message wasn't delivered
[07:52:07] <Ned Freed> FWIW, there are two ways to do nonrepudiation of delivery. The simple one involves a trusted third party. You send the mail to them, they encrypt, then send to the recipient. The recipient only gets the key after they produce a signed hash, proving they got the message.
[07:52:30] <Ned Freed> There's also a way to do it without a trusted third party, but it's nasty and complex and I don't want to type it all.
[07:52:36] <hildjj> note: don't try to check spelling in this week's build of Chrome. Crash!
[07:52:43] <Klensin> (not necessarily for Mic) I hate to say this, but this might be a better topic for ITU-T, just because of the interaction with/between national laws, etc.
[07:53:01] <Ned Freed> That's a kind of appalling thought.
[07:53:05] <hildjj> Klensin: hm. oddly, I think I agree.
[07:53:18] <S M> John, dioes it have the expertise to do email work?
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[07:54:47] <Klensin> SM: they certainly think so. But it is more or a question of who might be willing to go there to do the work and about the politics:technology ratio. The latter is what makes this appalling (to me as well as Ned)
[07:55:08] <hildjj> This would be a good use for X.400.
[07:55:18] hildjj ducks
[07:55:24] <S M> :-)
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[07:56:16] <Klensin> Ducking is right, but the ADMD relationship and the assumptions that went with it solves the registration problem :-(
[07:56:23] <Ned Freed> Exactly. My involvement in ISO stuff was very brief and with one of the least political groups they had, but the level of officiousness is … high.
[07:58:43] <Ned Freed> Also military.
[07:58:49] <resnick> This point of Dave's, that the people who would build this for these governments need to show up, I think is key. I'm not convinced they will (unless, as jck said, someone with more legal standing pushes it forward.)
[08:00:02] <Klensin> Partially agreeing with Dave, if we could make a really good problem and issue statement that includes criteria, etc., then hand off to the ITU, it could give them a solid basis... and then they could deal with politics, IPR, and other things about which we are traditionally ineffective.
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[08:03:20] <Ned Freed> Spam reporting through IMAP has all sorts of issues, including layering, but it also has real appeal.
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[08:04:14] <Ned Freed> I hate it on an aesthetic level, but there is no doubt that there's an audience for it.
[08:05:18] <tonyhanse> is this something that we missed in LEMONADE?
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[08:07:37] <Ned Freed> Maybe my memory is failing, but I don't recall spam issues as being on the LEMONADE agenda.
[08:07:55] <barryleiba> Ned: correct
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[08:08:25] <Ned Freed> Maybe they should have been; there are parts of the problem that change in the mobile space.
[08:08:35] <Ned Freed> But I for one didn't grok that at the time.
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[08:09:33] <Ned Freed> Gonna have to sign off now. Ciao.
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[08:19:25] <Klensin> Someone please poke Sebastian and remind him that everything IETF does is public, i.e., if some of those other bodies want to read specs or examine procedures and adapt them to their needs, that would be fine.
[08:22:51] <Klensin> Mic: Pete, the way to make spinning up a WG easy starts with making killing them easy, IMO. If one could say "demonstrate progress in X months or die" and get rid of "we got a WG and therefore are entitled to have our work published/standardized (no matter how weak)" and be serious about it, a lot of the dynamic would change.
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[08:27:27] <Klensin> I agree with Dave (!)
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[08:37:22] <hildjj> someone mention httpbis/spdy?
[08:38:00] <resnick> I think the assumption that things in the apps area are already known. :-)
[08:38:17] <hildjj> i would have expected someone to mention it this morning, though
[08:38:39] <hildjj> since it's potentially so large a change to our world
[08:41:28] <Ted Hardie> I think it might be useful to mention in the room which session it's getting attention in.
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[08:41:47] <hildjj> Ted: yes, please. exactly.
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[08:42:21] <stpeter> hildjj: oh yes
[08:42:33] <stpeter> hildjj: I'll raise that before the end
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[08:43:09] <Ted Hardie> Does he mean Rohan?
[08:43:19] <stpeter> Ted Hardie: no
[08:43:22] <stpeter> I don't think so
[08:44:11] <hildjj> is this Rohan?
[08:44:17] <hildjj> oh. sorry.
[08:44:19] <tonyhanse> should Cyrus be asked to help?
[08:45:28] <julian> /msg tonyhanse seems Cyrus is busy, Bernie tried that already
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[08:45:50] julian is confused about syntax
[08:45:57] <hildjj> "/me"
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[08:46:16] stpeter notes that julian was trying to send a private message to Tony
[08:46:30] <hildjj> or, if you want private message, d-click on the person in the room roster
[08:46:42] <hildjj> sorry, taking notes at same time, split attn
[08:47:14] <hildjj> speaker?
[08:47:30] <stpeter> Kepeng Li
[08:48:02] <hildjj> tx
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[08:51:55] <bhoeneis> @Ted: yes, Rohan is the one I inherited the document from
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[08:52:49] <hildjj> DOH!
[08:53:02] <hildjj> Etherpad server seems to have crashed, and lost the last hour+ of notes
[08:53:27] <linuxwolf> http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/homer-doh.jpg
[08:53:32] <hildjj> If anyone is in the etherpad, and gets the error msg, do NOT click on reconnect, please COPY
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[08:53:56] <hildjj> HELP?
[08:54:56] <stpeter> I'm pinging Henrik
[08:55:05] <sftcd> @hildjj: I think Henrik can recover from the server side
[08:55:06] <stpeter> I can't copy from the pad
[08:55:33] <barryleiba> Yeh, can't copy. Reconnect dialogue is modal.
[08:55:43] <hildjj> F
[08:56:36] <barryleiba> Someone with a MacBook could use preview to get screen captures. But I think Henrik can do better.
[08:57:10] <hildjj> also need help in the current etherpad, i've lost the thread of the conversation
[08:57:32] <stpeter> current = the one at tools.ietf.org?
[08:57:35] <stpeter> oh
[08:57:45] <stpeter> you reconnected and you're scribing again, right?
[08:57:57] <hildjj> right, but have no idea what we're talking about now. :)
[08:58:46] <stpeter> Roberto Peon at the mic, btw
[08:58:55] <stpeter> talking about virtualized applications
[08:59:00] <stpeter> let me see if there's an I-D
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[08:59:56] <bpjab1> Thats a good point. You could build applications using the set of html, CSS, JS etc. that are equivalent to native apps
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[09:00:24] <resnick> Wow! Bad Etherpad crash. Lost data.
[09:00:31] <hildjj> yes. Hence my "F"
[09:00:37] <resnick> Does anybody still have buffer on their screen to fill in?
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[09:00:55] <S M> Ok, got a copy
[09:01:21] tlr continues to be confused
[09:01:27] <tlr> I continue to be confused by this.
[09:01:33] <hildjj> SM: please paste into etherbad.
[09:01:39] <sftcd> @tlr: you're not alone
[09:01:45] <S M> I sent you a message, Joe
[09:03:34] <hildjj> seems like Bloom Filters would be interesting
[09:04:40] <stpeter> hildjj: no worries, the chairs can always make real minutes :)
[09:06:38] <jlcJohn> Do we have time to discuss use of HELO string?
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[09:11:58] <S M> They have two drafts
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[09:14:09] <Klensin> I don't know what is going on here, but IETF mailing lists have been used in the past to end-run other processes and then claim IETF endorsement for whatever is said on that list. So I guess I'm another "no" without more clarification.
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[09:14:25] <resnick> mic that?
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[09:14:39] <Klensin> Yeah, probably.
[09:15:03] <Klensin> (not to mic) I'll send you some nasty examples by email
[09:15:11] <resnick> :)
[09:15:26] <netwerkeddude> I agree with "no" without more substatiation
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[09:17:05] <barryleiba> Open mic time.
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