[00:40:50] yone joins the room [00:52:06] becarpenter joins the room [00:56:55] cyrus joins the room [00:59:30] tlyu joins the room [01:04:44] mattlarson joins the room [01:04:47] mattlarson leaves the room [01:05:20] cdaboo joins the room [01:05:27] cdaboo leaves the room [01:05:33] cyrus leaves the room [01:05:45] cyrus joins the room [01:05:51] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) joins the room [01:05:56] fujiwara joins the room [01:08:29] resnick joins the room [01:08:58] ꈲ joins the room [01:09:08] Michael Graff joins the room [01:09:17] Randall Gellens joins the room [01:09:33] netwerkeddude joins the room [01:09:39] joseph.yee joins the room [01:09:44] Marcos joins the room [01:09:54] frodek joins the room [01:09:55] mebbe the other app* rooms should go away..... [01:10:00] Klensin joins the room [01:10:07] jhildebr@cisco.com joins the room [01:10:40] no agenda or slides on the proceedings site [01:10:52] sm joins the room [01:11:09] Alexey emailed an agenda a few hours ago to apps-discuss [01:11:21] cyrus is jabber scribing ? [01:11:30] Not from Pittsburgh! [01:11:45] oh, u not here [01:11:53] Just sitting here digesting my dinner... [01:12:06] Andrew Sullivan joins the room [01:12:06] Now on the topic of MIME and the web [01:12:22] Alexey Melnikov: MIME and the Web [01:12:23] Nothing to say on timezone DB? [01:12:33] gone from agenda, it seems [01:12:46] yoiwa joins the room [01:14:57] Paul Hoffman joins the room [01:15:08] Atarashi Yoshifumi joins the room [01:15:26] sftcd joins the room [01:15:28] If others are interested in what Larry says about the web these days: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/TPAC/HTMLnext-perspectives.pdf [01:15:49] It's mostly HTML, but there is some MIME in there, I think. [01:16:59] vincent-afnic joins the room [01:18:00] ray_atarashi joins the room [01:19:40] Fragment identifiers means "#" thing? [01:19:48] Yes [01:21:18] What does that have to do with MIME? [01:24:01] Barry Leiba joins the room [01:26:10] In my understanding it refers to, for example, the feature that the URL http://example.com/foobar.pdf#page=2 referes to and opens the second page of the specified PDF. [01:26:26] Web 2.0 ... [01:26:33] wrt -masinter-mime-web-info, see also draft-abarth-mime-sniff [01:27:43] ꈲ leaves the room [01:29:39] tobias notes that masinter-mime-web-info and draft-abarth-mime-sniff (in new websec WG) intersect, and will try to find websec person(s) to review former (in light of latter) [01:30:03] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:30:56] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:30:57] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:31:17] jhildebr@cisco.com leaves the room: Disconnected. [01:32:07] Brian Carpenter: "problem statement for referrals" (in general, apparently) [01:32:09] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:32:15] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:32:42] jhildebr@cisco.com joins the room [01:33:11] ꈲ joins the room [01:33:20] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:33:25] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:34:31] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:34:36] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:37:02] lef joins the room [01:38:07] Kepeng Li joins the room [01:39:10] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:39:11] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:39:13] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) leaves the room [01:40:20] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:40:21] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:40:42] hta joins the room [01:41:43] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:41:44] draft under discussion: draft-carpenter-referral-ps-01 [01:41:46] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:42:32] ted hardie @ mic [01:42:33] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:42:41] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:43:07] Paul Hoffman leaves the room [01:43:23] - unless ur going to start sharing routing mech along with suggested context, won't work [01:43:42] brian c: see footnote in preso -- "path selection isn't part of the referral problem" [01:43:58] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:44:03] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:44:38] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) joins the room [01:44:55] ted: reason that is case is issues in routing arch -- and if the two aren't addressed in tandem, will make prob worse [01:45:33] harald a @ mic: looked up ICE, mabe referrals are problematic is because we're solving wrong prob. [01:46:02] Michael Graff leaves the room [01:46:15] harald: ice is mech for declaring "a connection" of 1st class objects. uses addrs as "hints" to obtain connection [01:47:28] harald: referral assumes that obj B has the assumed capabilities [01:47:54] harald: have a draft on this, not pub'd yet [01:48:23] Pete resnick: this seems like one layer of indirection solves everything [01:48:52] pete: apps that need ref objs, need to not handle path selection or routing arch [01:49:09] what happened to the Host Identity Protocol? [01:49:37] pete: have to solve underlying arch or apps will continue to have to solve this [01:50:05] pete: eg dynamic dns, or have a real global addr space [01:50:13] flyinhome joins the room [01:50:24] pete: thinks prob space is correct in I-D, but not recmd'd solution [01:50:59] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:51:00] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:51:33] cyrus leaves the room [01:51:33] dave crocker: prob needs to be raised, has been discussed in past, various attempts to solve, discussion shud be in IRTF seems -- not straight engr work at this time [01:52:03] Paul Hoffman joins the room [01:52:04] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:52:05] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:52:52] Carpenter's "Prolegomena to Any Future Networking". [01:53:21] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:53:22] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:54:18] cyrus joins the room [01:55:06] becarpenter leaves the room [01:55:42] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:55:43] draft: draft-lear-iana-timezone-database-00 [01:55:43] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:56:29] Paul Hoffman leaves the room [01:56:45] It is not "bringing work to the IETF" [01:56:46] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:56:51] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:57:27] Olson retires sometime in 2012. [01:57:58] It is "prorcess issues" [01:57:58] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:58:01] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:58:02] process [01:58:22] Someone on the TZ list who originally proposed that Unicode hosted it said he has no concrete alternative proposal so is happy to support the IETF one. [01:59:20] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [01:59:25] Marc Blanchet joins the room [01:59:25] Cyrus: do you want that channeled to the mic? [01:59:45] No need. [02:00:35] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:00:35] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:01:33] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:01:36] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:02:00] Unicode hosts the CLDR [02:02:12] Unicode maintains localized TZ names not actual TZ data. [02:02:35] Plus we use TZ identifiers in IETF standards - iCalendar. [02:02:47] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:02:48] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:02:52] A lot of work iCalendar folks want to do will depend on stable TZ ids going forward. [02:03:02] I will channel if something is prefixed with "mic:" [02:03:05] cyrus: indeed. [02:03:11] No channel needed. [02:03:15] ok [02:03:19] Just FYI in this room. [02:03:36] cyrus: we reference Unicode specs for other things, though, so refs aren't a problem. [02:03:49] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:03:56] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:04:23] what i'm worried about is the essentially world-political conversation of where the boundary of a timezone lies, and who has the political power to change them. [02:04:42] Yes, Joe [02:05:00] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:05:08] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:05:11] dwing joins the room [02:06:12] We could weigh down the whole TZ process with considerations like that, but frankly the TZ community has succeeded very well in keeping real politics out. The current draft is really all about maintaining the continuity of that approach. [02:06:12] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:06:18] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:07:31] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:07:32] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:08:13] shinta joins the room [02:08:42] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:08:43] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:08:44] linyi joins the room [02:09:44] shinta leaves the room [02:10:47] what does IDNA stands for? [02:10:59] Internationalized Domain Names in Applications. [02:11:32] thanks. [02:11:40] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5890 [02:15:35] dwing leaves the room [02:16:02] danwing joins the room [02:16:45] danwing leaves the room [02:18:30] what are the disallowed characters? [02:19:08] Characters that are not allowed in identifiers. Special symbols, non-printing characters, that sort of thing. [02:19:47] Paul Hoffman joins the room [02:20:24] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:20:28] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:20:48] shinta joins the room [02:21:40] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:21:42] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:23:03] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:23:05] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:23:50] Paul Hoffman leaves the room [02:24:02] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:24:05] Min joins the room [02:24:12] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:25:15] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:25:17] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:25:56] Linyi: U+0CF1 KANNADA SIGN JIHVAMULIYA U+0CF2 KANNADA SIGN UPADHMANIYA U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM DIGIT ONE [02:26:24] Btw, those three characters are not worth the time we are spending in this discussion. Add them to the BackwardsCompatible category and move along... [02:26:31] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:26:36] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:27:01] particularly not when having the discussion requires educating people [02:27:17] (as in "not worth the time") [02:27:28] This discussion isn't about the characters. It's about how to handle this situation when it arises, in general. [02:27:37] @Marcos: there is no question that these characters aren't that big a deal. But there is a serious architectural issue here [02:27:50] The discussion took place when the protocol was designed, as you said Andrew [02:27:59] Section 2.1 was [02:28:10] we said we would not evaluate characters this way. That was the whole point of the protocol. We generate the rules on the basis of the metadata [02:28:13] Section 2.7 of RFC 5982, I mean [02:28:19] which is what Dave and John are arguing about right now [02:28:36] I _hate_ really a lot to start using this category [02:28:49] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:28:52] And we already included the Exceptions category (Section 2.6) with codepoint by codepoint exceptions [02:28:52] but "Unicode lays an egg" is what that category automatically means [02:29:07] I don't know why we're reluctant to use it. This is what it's for. [02:29:12] We already went that path down. Move along! [02:29:54] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:30:59] I count 41 char exceptions in RFC 5982 [02:30:59] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:31:01] for the category, should i look at the RFC5890 to know more details? [02:31:02] Marc Blanchet joins the room [02:31:11] And now we are discussing about 3 more, my goodness... [02:31:30] Linyi: yes [02:31:48] well, 5892, actually, is where the table is [02:31:54] 5982 [02:32:02] but 5890 will help you understand it :) [02:32:07] Start with the framework (RFC 5980) [02:32:10] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [02:33:28] is category used just for classification and easy to read/write the documents?:) [02:34:11] or it does appears in the actual labels? [02:35:38] no [02:36:35] category is a property of the characters. Unicode offers it, but the tables in the Unicode standard are _normative_. Any dispute between the table and the category is resolved in favour of the table [02:36:44] Paul Hoffman joins the room [02:37:13] we didn't want to have these giant tables, however: that was the approach in IDNA2003 and it was not working as we wanted, because things had to be updated every time Unicode came out with a new version [02:37:21] Paul Hoffman leaves the room [02:37:42] so we wanted to use the categories algorithmically. And so here we are. [02:37:53] yes, understand. just like the proposal in this draft, any change would require a RFC, that would be a lot. [02:38:13] Why there is no registry for this? [02:38:22] g.e.montenegro joins the room [02:39:03] what do you mean "no registry" and "for this"? [02:39:12] yoiwa leaves the room [02:39:53] If we have a mechanism like registering a MIME type. we can have a registry for the table. [02:40:02] list Te category and characters:) [02:40:37] We have a registry for the table. But for us, the table is _not_ normative. The algos are. [02:40:49] algorithm, that is [02:40:52] ok, i see. [02:41:12] then we must have a draft like this. [02:41:17] this is discussed in the RFCs, but the context is admittedly confusing [02:43:50] Andrew, you said there is architecture issue related to this. What is it? [02:44:13] Andrew, we're talking about 2 tables - one is part of the algorithm (normative, and currently empty), the other table is the result of running the algorithm over Unicode 5.2 (non-normative, for exactly this reason). [02:44:54] linyi, Unicode DB is the registry for all character properties. [02:46:02] draft-hardie-mdtls-session-00 [02:46:06] The protocol was designed so that the IETF generally didn't need to make decisions about characters on an individual basis. This category was there exactly so that, if Unicode made a mistake such that things moved from PVALID to DISALLOWED (which is supposed to be impossible), we had a way to handle it. [02:47:02] if what we're going to do now is crank into action the machinery of deciding whether these are exceptions to that rule that _really_ matter, then we're not following the design of the protocol [02:47:16] which way? [02:47:57] In that we're not using the categories as much as possible [02:48:24] but what would happen if we have to? [02:48:39] we have a maintenance headache in future [02:48:49] it's not the end of the world, by any means [02:48:55] some architecture is ugly :) [02:49:00] that's true [02:50:54] we either needs to give the recommendation somewhere to reduce the use of category or we will move to this headache way, right? [02:51:08] or we just ignore and let the community to guess? [02:53:02] Well, no, we certainly have to do something. I agree with Paul. One thing we can do is use the exception category. The other is to say, "Yep, we gots these two characters in Unicode 6.0 that break our algorithm. No we're not going to do anything about it." [02:53:19] or rather [02:53:28] because they don't break the algorithm [02:53:42] they have different results across Unicode versions [02:53:45] Paul Hoffman joins the room [02:53:46] cyrus leaves the room [02:54:30] yoiwa joins the room [02:54:44] are these character properties final in Unicode yet? I thought I heard John say otherwise. [02:56:14] lef leaves the room [02:56:49] appsawg seems to be similar with Dispatch in RAI [03:01:41] there used to be a belief that long-standing working groups were a bad idea. [03:03:18] frodek leaves the room [03:03:32] I still have that belief, and I am co-chair of a long-standing WG [03:04:22] I think the idea was that long-standing WGs keep making up more work for themselves to do, regardless of how good an idea it is. [03:04:34] maybe not a problem for this kind of WG? [03:04:55] There has always been a problem handling a class of work that is too small for its own WG but too big for an individual submission [03:05:15] Paul Hoffman leaves the room [03:05:32] I argue that DNSEXT in fact falls into that category. But this does seem to be a sort of administrative clearing house. (Another way to look at it is that this amounts to evidence that starting WGs is now too hard.) [03:05:48] we used to have ad hoc meetings for this (IIRC, they had to be labeled BOFs) [03:06:00] It's been handled in different ways. Rallying a group of people to informally develop it (as was done with intial Sieve), convincing some WG to take it on, or an ad-hoc WG [03:06:39] Sometimes we've used ad-hoc WGs to take on several documents, then shut down [03:06:47] how many people will be activate in this wg? [03:06:50] Sometimes we've used a BOF to do it [03:06:57] a few hands are raised [03:07:07] what I find strange about asking the room whether people participate in the WG is that people just signed up to do work but they don't know what it is [03:07:13] Well, "this kind of WG" is basically an accumulator of small pieces of mabe-unrelated work. It is turns out to start making work, I hope the ADs will say "failed experiment" and kill it. It is a little different in that regard than a WG with a standard charter and set of tasks which keeps adding new tasks each time they get to the end of a program. [03:07:23] since the WG is the "we don't know what this is, except it's apps" WG [03:07:35] what is the best jabber client? [03:07:53] lini, ask the AD :-) [03:07:54] the biggest problem with starting new WGs seems to be that people have come to expect that a WG will last a certain amount of time and jump through a certain set of hoops. I won't claim I'm watching really closely but I get the impression that it is hard to start up a WG without it lasting 2 years... [03:07:55] i copied the text from PSI and pasted them into a word ,then it becomes a mess [03:07:59] A matter of taste and your OS [03:08:12] Andrew, that is what caused the funny hand action. I'm willing to monitor and get involved if they start working on something I care about and have time for. [03:08:12] no, AD will not handle jabber questions:) [03:08:12] I am fond of Adium (the duck) [03:08:27] But it's MacOS only (as far as I know) [03:08:34] i am using a mac [03:08:51] here's the deal, if you don't do a lot of chat, iChat will probably do just fine. you won't have refined preferences until you use chat a lot. [03:09:06] Check out www.adiumx.com [03:10:31] for iChat, you can save the chat (and reopened by iChat) rather than copy & paste [03:10:44] Randall Gellens leaves the room [03:12:20] real Linyi joins the room [03:12:34] i am using Adium now:) [03:12:47] it is interesting to have two Linyi online:) [03:12:54] :) [03:15:27] Marcos leaves the room [03:16:34] sftcd leaves the room [03:19:17] wg can drop an adopted draft... [03:19:29] g.e.montenegro leaves the room [03:19:50] linyi leaves the room [03:20:17] Randall Gellens joins the room [03:21:44] why not move forward and discuss how to solve the problems when we really have problems? [03:23:48] g.e.montenegro joins the room [03:24:02] g.e.montenegro leaves the room [03:25:43] Does it mean any draft this WG working on is WG draft? [03:26:12] yoiwa leaves the room [03:26:13] netwerkeddude leaves the room [03:26:14] Atarashi Yoshifumi leaves the room [03:26:15] jhildebr@cisco.com leaves the room: Disconnected. 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