[14:44:03] Julian joins the room [15:01:17] Exodus joins the room [15:01:33] Exodus is now known as yone [15:01:34] iljitsch joins the room [15:01:56] Mark Nottingham joins the room [15:02:17] Barry Leiba joins the room [15:02:35] resnick joins the room [15:03:04] Jim Galvin joins the room [15:03:24] sal joins the room [15:03:55] resnick has taken up scribing. [15:04:03] Agenda: [15:04:25] martin.thomson joins the room [15:04:26] tonyhansen joins the room [15:04:32] RESTful Web Protocol design [15:04:36] OAuth BOF [15:04:45] Common issues [15:04:48] New Work [15:04:51] LDAP? [15:04:58] YAM? FTP? Others? [15:05:03] Ted joins the room [15:05:03] Ted leaves the room [15:05:35] Moving on to Lisa for: Recent evolution RESTful Web Protocol design [15:05:48] fujiwara joins the room [15:06:33] HTTP protocol is "restful". Roy Fielding wrote a paper on this. [15:06:37] ctg1701 joins the room [15:06:48] However, dynamic web pages, based on CGI, are not at all restful. [15:06:51] Megumi joins the room [15:06:51] ewburger joins the room [15:07:42] ping [15:07:43] Servlets also not restful. [15:07:47] pong [15:07:55] Randall Gellens joins the room [15:08:07] hirocomb12 joins the room [15:08:13] webdav is a little more restful: Has lock/unlock. [15:08:28] which is the title of paper Roy Fielding have written on HTTP protocol is restful ? [15:08:30] does audio work for anybody? [15:08:34] jhildebrand joins the room [15:08:48] However, webdav tends to take on properties of SQL, which is not terribly restful. [15:09:53] (Did she say "ATOM"?) [15:09:54] wikipedia says: Architectural Styles and the Design of Network-based Software Architectures, Fielding's doctoral dissertation [15:09:57] since when do we no longer use slides when presenting? [15:10:01] Who's talking? Is the presentation available from somewhere? URL? [15:10:11] lisa [15:10:14] This is Lisa Dusseault talking. [15:10:16] It's a talk, not a set of PPT slides. [15:10:16] No slides. [15:10:23] She's free-styling. [15:10:38] She's just *that* good. :) [15:11:00] Hm. I have my doubts about the statements what Restful are not :-) [15:11:06] ATOM is being used: Server hands back a list of links, client gets what it gets. [15:11:19] More restful. [15:11:20] I've been doing WebDAV for years, and see no parallels to SQL at all. [15:11:38] Digression to SOAP: [15:11:54] SOAP, RPC-style protocol, even more hated. [15:12:21] Peny joins the room [15:12:38] AJAX can use any of these styles (AJAX could be restful) [15:12:49] again: is the audiocast working for anybody? [15:13:02] AJAX can do SOAP, or WEBDAV, or..... [15:13:17] mhp joins the room [15:13:38] shinta joins the room [15:14:10] Ad-hoc suite of web standards are now being built. [15:14:22] atarashi joins the room [15:15:00] atarashi leaves the room [15:15:01] (OAuth one of these. More on this later.) [15:15:18] OpenID is being taken up and there's been an explosion of this technology. [15:15:27] (Used for phishing....not good) [15:16:52] OAuth does access-delegation tokens. [15:17:34] OAuth is authorization, not authentication. [15:17:46] XRDS(?) [15:18:02] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XRDS [15:18:10] OpenSocial and PortableContacts also developing. [15:18:22] What did Lisa say abut XRDS? [15:18:31] (All things can be answered by wikipedia. And it is of course, always correct.) [15:18:47] Randy: She's just going through technologies that are getting going. [15:19:00] (pete: sorry, figured it would save everyone the G search) [15:19:03] note: focus is more on XRDS-Simple than XRDS, AIUI [15:20:06] DJSVXR3J joins the room [15:20:53] Lisa completes her rant. [15:20:59] (self-described) [15:21:11] DJSVXR3J leaves the room [15:21:12] Someone asks about OpenSocial. [15:21:24] what was the point she tried to make? I'm afraid I missed it. [15:21:25] narten joins the room [15:21:37] levigner joins the room [15:21:39] ray joins the room [15:21:44] kdz joins the room [15:21:49] Iljitsch - It was (AFAICT) simply a review of current developments. [15:22:18] especially those that are coming back to the RESTful web architecture. [15:22:36] cyrus joins the room [15:22:43] narten leaves the room [15:22:45] narten joins the room [15:23:07] Q from floor: How do we work with these folks? [15:23:30] Lisa: People have been bring stuff to us. (e.g. CalConnect) [15:24:29] atarashi joins the room [15:24:50] Bob Morgan: Lots of places where these folks might shop this stuff around (IETF, W3C, Oasis). It would be good if there was not forum shopping. [15:25:14] There is also a new Open Web Foundation. [15:25:46] What are we doing wrt liaison? [15:26:13] Lisa: We normally do formal liaisons when there are problems. Otherwise, we do so informally. [15:26:28] Also, since we are open-participation, any of these folks can come along. [15:26:42] However, we are 2 generations behind on these architectures. [15:27:03] Process here is a bit daunting (socially, not membership wise) [15:28:10] St. Peter: It might be helpful to write an I-D on how to break in to the IETF. (There is the Tao, but it doesn't cover all of it.) [15:28:23] St. Peter volunteers himself to write it. [15:28:52] Mark Nottingham: Less documents would be better than more. :-) [15:29:29] John (a newbie): Newbies hanging about together and learning how to deal. [15:30:51] Bob Morgan: The plusses of IETF need to be described for folks. [15:31:42] Mark Nottingham: Risks/barriers tough. Immediate change control surrender is a problem. Is there a way to be more gradual? [15:32:26] Ted Hardie: That's pretty much what happens right now. [15:33:17] But we have to be clear that if there is a chartered WG, everybody has to be equal, and you can't be better than equal just because you started earlier. [15:33:40] It's not important that the IETF has change control. It's more about equality of WG members. [15:33:50] Ted: +1. It's *really* hard to have that little ego for lots of folks, though. [15:34:19] ESDS work was a good example of this. [15:35:28] We might need a clear breakover for when folks become a real WG. [15:35:48] shinta leaves the room [15:36:07] Dave Crocker: When a group has "intellectual property", they don't hand it over until until it becomes a standard. [15:36:19] They can always go away before things are complete. [15:37:43] ctg1701 leaves the room [15:38:47] Key is for you to act under the rules of the IETF, then bringing it into the process is easy (and more or less just IETF blessing.) [15:38:48] jhildebrand leaves the room: Disconnected. [15:38:48] cyrus leaves the room [15:38:56] (who is now talking?) [15:39:16] kdz leaves the room [15:39:19] cyrus joins the room [15:39:59] sftcd joins the room [15:40:16] Eric Brunner-Williams: Need more tutorials. [15:40:30] What do we tell people coming into IDNAbis? [15:40:47] Lisa: Edu team is doing tutorials. [15:41:04] atarashi leaves the room: Replaced by new connection [15:41:24] jhildebrand joins the room [15:42:06] (sorry, missed the last comment) [15:42:21] (XCAP was mentioned, and it threw me for a loop.) [15:43:12] atarashi joins the room [15:43:14] Mark Nottingham on OAuth.... [15:43:25] BOF at 1300 on OAuth. [15:43:43] HTTP Authentication protocol. [15:43:54] Please come. [15:43:56] Huh. That will be the first point of contention at the BOF, then. [15:44:06] (authentication vs. authorization) [15:44:20] ctg1701 joins the room [15:44:28] Chris Newman on common apps-area issues in specs. [15:44:36] Things that have gone wrong in the past: [15:44:56] XML Schemata (BCP 70, section 4.7) [15:45:15] Lisa joins the room [15:45:17] How are you using that schema? [15:45:23] vijay.gurbani joins the room [15:45:26] XML is extensible by default. [15:45:47] But XML Schema is non-extensible by default and very difficult to make extensible if used to validate. [15:46:16] "Here's the schema, and if there's ever a change, we'll change the namespace" [15:46:49] Relax NG is non-extensible by default. It's not trivial to make it extensible. [15:46:55] Is the audio working yet? [15:46:57] jhildebrand leaves the room: Logged out [15:46:57] Julian? [15:46:58] cyrus leaves the room [15:47:01] Yes. [15:47:03] :) [15:47:04] Next topic: Re-use of HTTP [15:47:04] It is working for me [15:47:07] Bad links were published. [15:47:24] BCP 56 is not exactly right. Overloading exiting media types is bad. [15:47:56] jhildebrand joins the room [15:47:59] People don't discuss what features of HTTP are needed for the app [15:48:12] Industry wants to re-use HTTP APIs for GET/POST [15:48:19] jhildebrand leaves the room: Connection Manager is offline. [15:48:21] Next topic: i18n text [15:48:24] jhildebrand joins the room [15:48:28] Julian leaves the room [15:48:39] BCP 18 (RFC 2277) still has to be raised fairly often. [15:48:48] Language Tag rules in prace looser, but not gone. [15:49:00] Net-Unicode (RFC 5198) Is helpful. [15:49:12] StringPrep has issues. [15:49:28] Next topic: App use of TLS [15:49:49] TLS doesn't have "default" template for re-use of TLS in an app. [15:50:22] Each app needs text to describe server identity check. There are subtle differences now. [15:50:40] draft-hodges-server-ident-check-00.txt [15:51:15] Let's use http://www.imc.org/ietf-apps-tls/ [http://www.imc.org/ietf-apps-tls/] [15:51:25] SimonJosefsson joins the room [15:51:35] Maybe a new list. [15:51:42] New Topic: IANA Considerations. [15:51:53] State the title of the registry [15:52:08] "Specification required" implies "expert review" [15:52:13] ctg1701 leaves the room [15:52:29] Simple/Clear rules. [15:52:52] The registry should not have mandatory list of review procedures. [15:53:16] IANA is converting to XML-based registries, so if you want an XML mode, look at what IANA's done. [15:54:10] Going back: Will announce TLS list on apps-discuss; the imc list is closed. [15:55:10] jhildebrand leaves the room: Replaced by new connection. [15:55:12] jhildebrand joins the room [15:55:22] shinta joins the room [15:56:48] Sorry, typo above: The registry should not have mandatory list review procedures. [15:57:12] chris_griffiths joins the room [15:57:14] ludovic.poitou joins the room [15:57:17] More discussion on this topic. [15:57:36] ludovic.poitou leaves the room [15:57:39] Next Agenda Item: New Apps Area work [15:58:17] Kurt: Looking to set up a new LDAP WG to do some as-yet-underdetermined things. [15:58:48] Contact us (maybe Wed Bar BOF) to discuss. Use the old LDAPEXT list. [16:00:02] Tony: YAM (Yet Another Mail WG) [16:00:51] Bunch of RFCs: SMTP/Submit, Message Format, MIME, Others. [16:01:10] All of them are at Draft Standard (oldest for 14 years) [16:01:29] All candidates for Full Standard. [16:02:34] Review of 2026 rules for advancement. [16:03:30] chris_griffiths leaves the room [16:03:41] To move forward, we need to 1. Review; 2. Either (a) recommend for advancement or (b) revise; 3. Repeat. [16:03:53] yone leaves the room: Replaced by new connection [16:03:53] Only fix errata, no new work. [16:03:58] yone joins the room [16:05:27] YAM plans to do this work. Charter discussion starting. [16:05:55] atarashi leaves the room [16:06:07] cyrus joins the room [16:06:20] Charter design team now, mailing list forthcoming son. [16:06:47] ludovic.poitou joins the room [16:07:25] Alexey: MORG is getting a charter together this week. [16:07:28] yone leaves the room: Replaced by new connection [16:07:29] yone joins the room [16:07:31] More discussion on mailing list. [16:07:50] Barry: MORG is about search/sort extensions for mail. [16:08:39] Barry: FTP drafts (klensin) and other FTP-related products to move towards some work here. [16:09:03] Klensin: Is there enough interest to do any of this work? [16:09:37] Time to fish or cut bait. [16:09:52] vijay.gurbani leaves the room [16:12:23] Lisa: Doesn't think this is a good idea. [16:12:24] chris_griffiths joins the room [16:12:49] John: Bad to have it done without standardization. [16:12:56] Gotta figure this out. [16:13:03] Comments/announcements [16:14:31] Yngve: Working on a draft re: Cookies, other web auth stuff (I think). [16:14:47] ewburger leaves the room [16:15:23] Dan York joins the room [16:15:38] Peter St. Andre: Working on XMPP updates. [16:16:02] Maybe getting a Bar BOF together. [16:16:58] Info on xmpp.org [http://xmpp.org] [16:17:34] Kurt: Reviewing service discovery doc. Worth other folks having a look at. [16:18:31] Ted Hardie: GEOPRIV stuff - held identity extensions draft Klensin/Fältström concerns. Please review. [16:19:28] Also, W3C has a location API, and it has some serious problems (not paying attention to privacy framework, other things in GEOPRIV). Needs pushback. [16:21:23] ewburger joins the room [16:21:50] Nottingham: HTTPbis is chugging along. -05 released this morning. [16:22:47] draft -06 is being planned. Editors are doing some significant rewrite with proposals for addressing issues. [16:24:13] ggarber joins the room [16:24:21] Meeting adjourned. 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