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[04:03:27] <fenton> Good morning!
[04:03:54] <fenton> Ted Hardie introducing the meeting
[04:03:54] <marka> Rememer the NOTEWELL
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[04:04:14] <fenton> Ted: agenda bash?
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[04:04:21] <marka> no items
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[04:04:35] <fenton> Nothing heard, onto open mic topics
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[04:05:15] <fenton> 2 WGs just, closed, OPES and WebDav
[04:05:16] <marka> IRI Recgnition + robots.txt + new work for open mike
[04:05:58] <fenton> CRISP, IMAPEXT, WIDEX expected to close prior to Chicago
[04:06:44] <fenton> Paul Hoffman: ATOMPUB may close too
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[04:07:33] <fenton> Mailing lists for these will stay open after WGs close
[04:07:58] <marka> Congrats to Lisa
[04:08:01] <fenton> Newest addition: Lisa isn't here because of birth of Darwin
[04:08:41] <fenton> Chris Newman: Incoming apps AD replacing Ted (applause for Ted)
[04:09:32] <fenton> Chris is taking over a little early because of Lisa'a absence
[04:09:51] <fenton> Eric Burger now discussing apps area review team.
[04:10:13] <marka> 7 documents reviewed
[04:10:51] <marka> Reviews occured within 1 week
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[04:11:05] <marka> one doc longer
[04:11:15] <marka> 1 doc per-person
[04:11:33] <fenton> apps-review@ietf.org
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[04:12:12] <fenton> To volunteer, send an email to eburger@bea.com
[04:12:47] <marka> web page to come,
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[04:12:55] <marka> Review of BoFs
[04:13:03] <marka> FSM BoF
[04:13:04] <fenton> FAM BoF
[04:13:11] <fenton> (oops) FSM
[04:13:26] <fenton> Stephane Bortzmeyer speaking
[04:13:41] <fenton> finite state machine description language
[04:13:53] <marka> BoF tomorrow
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[04:14:32] <marka> Dow we need such a language?
[04:14:35] <fenton> BoF is to discuss need for such a language, and which of several contenders
[04:14:40] <marka> If so which one?
[04:14:56] <marka> Call for Questions
[04:15:16] <fenton> Pete Resnick will co-chair
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[04:15:48] <marka> Ted whether there will be a mandate or not>
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[04:16:09] <marka> expects it won't but will be available
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[04:16:38] <marka> lots X area but inside apps for wg
[04:16:48] <fenton> No questions.
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[04:17:01] <fenton> Peppermint next, Rich Shockey
[04:17:19] <fenton> co-chairing with Andrew Newman
[04:17:52] <fenton> Various ENUM efforts, chartered narrowly (e.164 -> URI)
[04:17:58] <marka> enum is charter to mapping tel # to uri in dns
[04:18:30] <marka> speermint how do service provide inter connect with each other.
[04:18:30] <fenton> SPEERMINT defined to allow interconnect of various service providers
[04:19:12] <marka> need to epand provisiong protocols
[04:19:48] <fenton> trust issues wrt routing data
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[04:20:10] <marka> rfc 4114 is basis
[04:20:11] <fenton> Building on rfc 4114 and 4414
[04:20:35] <marka> aim for chichago
[04:20:36] <fenton> Want to formalize in Chicago.
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[04:21:04] <marka> previous work crisp Provreg
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[04:21:34] <marka> Call for questions
[04:22:00] <fenton> Dave Crocker: Doesn't understand the problem yet
[04:23:00] <fenton> Trust and policy are issues
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[04:23:34] <fenton> Ted: People that want to talk to multiple entities shouldn't have to talk differently to different carriers
[04:23:52] <marka> data flow is a mesh
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[04:27:08] <fenton> Crocker: acknowledges he's not a phone company guy, looking for a way to describe it to others like him
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[04:28:14] <fenton> Issue is that there may be multiple entities providing service for a given name (E.164 num)
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[04:28:57] <fenton> Another issue is "who owns phone numbers"
[04:29:04] <marka> John C at mic
[04:29:13] <fenton> John Klensin at mic
[04:29:15] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> John Klensin at the mic
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[04:31:00] <fenton> Klensin: Data structures highly indirected, many pointers, raises anxiety level
[04:31:31] <fenton> Mark Nottingham re HTTP next
[04:32:07] <marka> Bar Bof in Montreal
[04:32:10] <fenton> BarBoF in Montreal, 15 interested inrevising rfc 2616
[04:32:43] <fenton> Not to add new features, but to fix ambiguities, make it more stable
[04:33:06] <fenton> rfc2616bis draft written
[04:33:28] <fenton> over 50 issues outstanding
[04:33:35] <fenton> some editorial some substantive
[04:33:51] <marka> issues list @w3c web site
[04:34:29] <fenton> Test suite for HTTP needed
[04:34:31] <marka> possible test suite as outcom
[04:35:11] <fenton> Want to minimize creative interpretations of spec
[04:35:37] <fenton> Plan to request BoF in Chicago
[04:35:55] <fenton> Hope to have proposals for issues by then
[04:36:22] <fenton> Most problematic issue is mandatory-to-implement security
[04:36:36] <marka> for discussion today please.
[04:37:46] <fenton> Various flavors of authentication, for example
[04:38:10] <fenton> Are new auth mechanisms needed? Many potential answers and constituents
[04:38:32] <fenton> Questions?
[04:38:35] <marka> single solution may not be possible
[04:38:58] <fenton> Dave Crocker at mic
[04:39:11] <marka> dave croker: heard fix current problems and more strigent security
[04:39:22] <marka> mayne seperate efforts
[04:39:51] <fenton> Ted Hardie at mic
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[04:40:15] <marka> what would benefit community to have
[04:40:17] <fenton> Would benefit community to have a document describing threat model for each
[04:40:30] <marka> threat models
[04:41:22] <marka> maybe advice cook book
[04:41:25] <fenton> Turns into a cookbook of what auth to use for what
[04:41:59] <fenton> A lot has been layered on top of http
[04:42:44] <fenton> More of a description of how to use existing auth well rather than new methods
[04:44:18] <fenton> Chris Newman: As incoming AD, will fight to document what's done and their limitations
[04:44:58] <fenton> Barry Leiba next
[04:45:07] <fenton> regarding notifications
[04:45:23] <fenton> 7 classes of notifications relating to email
[04:45:51] <fenton> lemonade, context, idle, vfolder, msg-events, sieve notify, SNAP, etc
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[04:46:09] <fenton> Human readable and machine readable
[04:46:44] <fenton> List of desirable properties...no polling, etc.
[04:47:21] <fenton> Extensible for other uses
[04:47:28] <fenton> besides email
[04:47:40] <marka> notifications@ietf.org
[04:47:42] <fenton> BoF or WG in Chicagp?
[04:48:04] <fenton> Eric Burger at mic
[04:48:25] <fenton> Lemonade should have this done by Chicago
[04:48:38] <fenton> Is this to clean up lemonade or boil ocean?
[04:49:04] <fenton> Barry: Doesn't want to block lemonade
[04:49:22] <fenton> Dave Crocker: What about lemonade is insufficient?
[04:49:36] <fenton> Barry: Need to check for gaps and generalize for other things
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[04:50:04] <fenton> Barry nods
[04:50:21] <fenton> Chris Newman at mic
[04:50:54] <fenton> People have worked on protocols for server-server and server-client notification that aren't interested in the rest of lemonade.
[04:51:07] <fenton> Perhaps want to have a more focused list on the notification issue.
[04:51:50] <fenton> Eric Burger: lemonade is on a timeline, on the edge of relevance because running late
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[04:52:13] <fenton> Lemonade has a lot of things to do, perhaps abdicate this
[04:52:40] <fenton> Barry: Didn't intend to have lemonade drop this
[04:53:02] <fenton> Eric: Will make people nervous if there is a sense it's being eclipsed
[04:54:20] <fenton> Chris Newman: leery of topic of a general notification solution. Wants a group doing email notifications in an extensible way
[04:54:35] <fenton> Better focused on things we understand
[04:55:19] <fenton> Do email first, then the general model
[04:55:54] <fenton> Ted Hardie (hat off): sailing across ocean, not boiling it.
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[04:56:58] <fenton> Starting with a particular use case is good, but having it closer for other applications would be good
[04:57:21] <fenton> What about SIP notify?
[04:57:51] <fenton> DCrocker: Chris and Ted just said incompatible things
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[04:58:35] <fenton> Work dies when focus is too broad
[04:59:07] <fenton> Eric stated a market confusion concern, which is valid
[04:59:49] <fenton> interprets Barry as saying "Lemonade notification can be broadened"
[04:59:53] <fenton> Barry nods somewhat
[05:00:09] <fenton> Eric is walking around trying to make eye contact with everybody...
[05:00:42] <fenton> Eric Burger wants to see who is interested that isn't a lemonader
[05:01:12] <fenton> If so, see Eric or Glenn Parsons
[05:01:44] <fenton> Show of hands: people not involved in lemonade that are interested in working on email notifications
[05:02:08] <fenton> (about 6-10 hands)
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[05:02:42] <fenton> Similar show of hands for need for a separate WG
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[05:03:32] <fenton> Ted at mic: Dave's point is valid, but broader question of whether we should still tackle this. IAB notifications workshop?
[05:03:44] <fenton> Barry will bring this up
[05:04:14] <fenton> Glenn Parsons: Concern that this will distract lemonade notifications work
[05:04:41] <fenton> Suggest that this not be chartered before Chicago
[05:05:41] <fenton> Pete Resnick: Suggests that Aaron might have a forum (IRTF) for woolier discussions
[05:05:49] <fenton> Ted disagrees that's a good idea
[05:06:23] <fenton> Pete: Not all IRTF things are all that researchy
[05:07:08] <fenton> Eliot Lear: confused.
[05:07:27] <fenton> Where to go to join mailing list? Not well posted on tools page
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[05:08:36] <fenton> Chris: Wants to see (soon) somebody put together a model document for notifications
[05:09:00] <fenton> Part of this may fit well into lemonade, and part may lie outside
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[05:09:50] <fenton> Barry: Trying to twist Philip Guenther's arm on that
[05:10:36] <fenton> Randy Gellens: Choice of venue will determine the scope that's addressed, how long it takes, etc
[05:10:56] <fenton> Happy to help
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[05:11:48] <fenton> Eric: Points to lemonade agenda: Notifications being discussed about 5:15 today
[05:12:27] <fenton> Suggests interested parties come to that part of the meeting
[05:13:26] <fenton> Comment that lemonade notifications document is confusing. Eric: "fix it!"
[05:13:49] <fenton> End of topic. Next: Ted Hardie re ROAP
[05:13:53] <marka> ROAP
[05:14:04] <fenton> Ted: Routing And Addressing Problem
[05:14:07] <marka> BoF Wednesday
[05:14:15] <fenton> RRG last Sat
[05:14:25] <fenton> 60 or so attended, poorly publicized
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[05:14:43] <fenton> second half of Plenary on Wed is really a ROAP BoF
[05:14:58] <fenton> Need lots of cross-area review
[05:15:15] <fenton> ID/Locator split needs early APPS area review
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[05:15:59] <fenton> May have significant impact on referrals
[05:16:23] <fenton> But INT area meeting conflicts with lemonade and other things
[05:16:46] <fenton> Some proposals imply changing semantics of existing APIs
[05:17:52] <marka> Dave Croker at mic
[05:18:04] <fenton> DCrocker: Ted may have underplayed seriousness of this
[05:18:14] <fenton> (ironic comment)
[05:18:54] <fenton> Abstract debate going on for quite some time (3-4 years thrashing). Dangerous.
[05:19:02] <fenton> Needs sanity; this group may help
[05:19:13] <marka> Pete Resnick at mic
[05:19:19] <fenton> Pete Resnick: Amplifies further on seriousness of this
[05:19:42] <fenton> multihoming
[05:19:56] <marka> impact on roaming
[05:20:06] <fenton> Eliot Lear: Chaired IRTF effort this some time ago
[05:20:29] <fenton> 7 years later, we have some running code in this space (HIP)
[05:20:53] <fenton> Worth looking at HIP, what happens if your applications run on top of it
[05:20:59] <marka> plea to look at hip
[05:21:09] <fenton> Things that look like IP addresses but aren't
[05:21:37] <fenton> Should collect info on what works and what doesn't into a document
[05:21:57] <fenton> Nark Nottingham at mic
[05:22:02] <fenton> Mark
[05:22:14] <fenton> Does this change things like URLs?
[05:22:49] <fenton> Ted: If the meaning of the IP address changes into an identifier that needs indirection, ability to pass referral to a specific point in the topology no longer works
[05:24:57] <fenton> Eliot: Problem is that the routing system on the Internet doesnt scale. Not just trying to add pain
[05:25:26] <fenton> Next: Open mic
[05:25:58] <fenton> IRI recognition (Yoshiro Yoneya)
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[05:26:31] <fenton> [Aside: DCrocker looking for input for email architecture document]
[05:26:38] <fenton> Yoneya:
[05:27:18] <fenton> Many apps recognize URIs automatically
[05:27:54] <fenton> Utilization of IDNs and IRIs getting higher,
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[05:28:29] <fenton> Apps need to recognize IRIs correctly, and take proper actions when users click on an IRI
[05:28:39] --- hta has joined
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[05:29:20] <fenton> URI delimiters (RFC 3986)
[05:29:41] <fenton> Whitespace delimiters ambiguous for IRIs
[05:30:20] <fenton> definition of wsp unclear
[05:30:39] <fenton> Perhaps use Unicode definition of wsp
[05:31:13] <fenton> Beginning of IRI probably unambiguous anyway
[05:31:33] <fenton> Inter-application IRI passing
[05:32:23] <fenton> Which form of IRI is used? IRI form, or ASCII-ized form?
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[05:33:33] <fenton> Ted Hardie: Both forms are really IRIs.
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[05:34:53] <fenton> Yoneya: Caller can't assume callee is IDN compliant
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[05:36:41] <fenton> Discussion: Is whitespace discussion proposal acceptable? Assumptions re passing IRIs vs ACE form?
[05:36:53] <fenton> At mic: Pete Resnick.
[05:37:33] <fenton> Inter-process communication should use ACE for maximum compatibility. What is the concern with this>
[05:38:38] <fenton> Ted: Inter-protocol form should be the URI form of an IRI. There is always a URI form available. IRIs are really a presentation layer for the user. Protocol processing should use URI form.
[05:39:09] <fenton> Should do whitespace like URIs
[05:39:35] <fenton> But what you present to the user may very well be the IRI form
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[05:40:41] <fenton> Yoneya: But many things can accept the IRI form
[05:41:13] <fenton> Pete: Not talking about inter-protocol comm, but inter app-comm
[05:41:39] <fenton> Good citizens who are callers do the ACE conversion first.
[05:42:08] <fenton> Patrik Faltstrom at mic
[05:42:49] <fenton> Copy and paste between apps typically has a negotiation to see what the recipient wants
[05:43:00] <fenton> Could have a similar thing here
[05:43:36] <fenton> Mac has done this for 15-20 years, perhaps in X windows too
[05:43:59] <fenton> Yoneya: Mac doesn't handle IRI correctly
[05:44:05] <fenton> John KLensin at mic
[05:44:45] <fenton> Applications in international environments should work in the way that makes sense locally
[05:45:03] <fenton> IETF doesn't typically specify user interfaces, it's not our specialty
[05:45:50] <fenton> Right-left writing example
[05:46:00] <fenton> People may be forced to ignore the protocols
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[05:46:54] <fenton> Ted: URIs shown all have internationalization all in the domain portion
[05:47:14] <fenton> There must be a definition of how to make an IRI for each scheme
[05:47:32] <fenton> Cannot in general just say that any characters can go anywhere.
[05:47:50] <fenton> No such definition for http that Ted knows of
[05:48:10] <fenton> Discussions with W3C on this point
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[05:48:36] <fenton> Some schemes have limitations
[05:48:52] <fenton> e.g., mailto:
[05:49:12] <fenton> Pete again: re whitespace
[05:49:46] <fenton> Whitespace a serious problem in free text URIs
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[05:50:07] <fenton> How do you find the scheme in free text?
[05:50:30] <fenton> Full delimiting with angle brackets is the best appriack
[05:50:33] <fenton> approach
[05:51:16] <fenton> Perhaps push back to W3C to get something done about freetext
[05:51:35] <fenton> Randy gellens: Perhaps too late, whitespace delimiting is very common
[05:51:56] <fenton> (new speaker, didn't get name)
[05:52:08] <fenton> Also hope for delimiting
[05:52:17] <fenton> with angle brackets, for example.
[05:52:44] <Randy> My point is that I hope it isn't to late: delimiters (e.g., angle brackets) desperately needed
[05:53:08] <fenton> DCrocker: Repeating for emphasis
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[05:53:23] <fenton> IETF doesn't have much track record on this.
[05:53:45] <fenton> This is a heuristic, so IETF shouldn't be working in that area
[05:53:46] <mtcarrasco> New speaker is Carrasco
[05:53:53] <fenton> thanks!
[05:54:20] <fenton> Next topic: Harald Alvestrand
[05:54:40] <fenton> Request from a friend, re robots.txt
[05:55:21] <fenton> Shouldn't we standardize robots.txt?
[05:56:26] <fenton> Mark Nottingham: Agree, concerned that robots.txt is being cited in a legal context
[05:56:48] <fenton> With W3C liaison hat on, they have just opened a metadata working group
[05:57:14] <fenton> Another proposal called sitemaps being considered by some
[05:58:04] <fenton> Harald: We can define something new, but there is still a need to document what's there
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[05:58:46] <fenton> Paul Hoffman: believes that he wrote a draft a decade or so ago, but there was no interest.
[05:59:20] <fenton> Reformatting should take less than an hour, probably in informational document.
[06:00:25] <fenton> DCrocker: Does IETF standardize existing practice?
[06:00:49] <fenton> Thinks standards-track may be useful
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[06:01:16] <fenton> Mark N: What about addressing ambiguities?
[06:01:29] <fenton> Harald: If the spec is broken, fix it. If not, don't.
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[06:02:17] <fenton> Paul H: General agreement that it's broken in some respects, but it's a really bad idea to make changes that would break something.
[06:02:52] <fenton> Do we want to do the real work on something improved? Is this the right place?
[06:03:19] <fenton> Chris N: If there are multiple interoperable implementations, a good spec, and community interest, then go for it.
[06:03:30] <fenton> Interest? 6 hands
[06:03:49] <fenton> (about 20 think something should be done)
[06:04:23] <fenton> Ted: Need to ask the person who started this work (Martin) about this.
[06:04:34] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> Martijn Koster
[06:04:38] <fenton> Polling:
[06:05:03] <fenton> Just do it: 10-15. Mailing list: Smaller number. WG? no interest
[06:05:29] <fenton> Barry L: Start with ietf general mailing list, make a list if there's a lot of interest
[06:05:48] <fenton> Tony Hansen suggests using the apps list
[06:06:12] <fenton> coin toss results in decision to use of apps-discuss mailing list
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[06:06:28] <fenton> End of defined topics
[06:06:40] <fenton> Now open open-mic
[06:06:53] <fenton> John Klensin: On apps-discuss, there are 2 drafts.
[06:07:23] <fenton> Network unicode things, please speak up sooner rather than later.
[06:07:30] <fenton> Last call is coming soon!
[06:07:47] <fenton> No other topics.
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[06:07:52] <fenton> Meeting adjourned
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