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[09:07:20] * pguenther starts scribing
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[09:07:44] <pguenther> NOTE WELL...
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[09:08:12] <pguenther> agenda:
[09:08:17] <pguenther> (bashing)
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[09:08:22] <pguenther> - closing WG
[09:08:28] <pguenther> - BoF announcements
[09:08:37] <pguenther> - WAE introduction
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[09:08:43] <pguenther> - IDN next steps and Unicode text transmission
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[09:08:50] <pguenther> - Open Mike
[09:08:53] --- newcat has joined
[09:09:11] --- kdz has joined
[09:09:20] <pguenther> change: add discussion of review teams
[09:09:25] --- roland has joined
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[09:09:40] <pguenther> eric burger: some areas have review teams doing cross-area review
[09:10:01] --- Barry Leiba has joined
[09:10:21] <pguenther> with intro of RAI area brings up more issues that apps has already tackled
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[09:11:31] <tonyhansen> what was the name of the pizza place?
[09:11:41] <Jelte> Pizza Focasomething
[09:11:41] <tonyhansen> & address?
[09:11:46] <pguenther> bar bof tonight to talk about doing this for apps area
[09:11:56] <pguenther> WG closings:
[09:11:56] <Jelte> Place Philipe, north of delat hotel, east side of the square
[09:11:59] <pguenther> LDAPbis
[09:12:05] <pguenther> <cheering>
[09:12:07] <Jelte> s/delat/delta/
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[09:12:40] <pguenther> CLASIFY rechartering, removing a mileston
[09:12:42] <pguenther> e
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[09:13:24] <pguenther> LTRU recharter may(?) occur
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[09:13:41] <pguenther> some possible future closures:
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[09:14:02] <pguenther> OPES probably
[09:14:42] <pguenther> Paul Hoffman: ATOMPUB may be closing with completion of their milestones
[09:14:48] <pguenther> format standard is done
[09:14:55] <pguenther> protocol to go to last call soon
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[09:16:38] <pguenther> one particular 'extension' (use of jabber for notifications) will be discussed, other to be put off/elsewhere
[09:16:44] <pguenther> - BOFs
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[09:17:16] <pguenther> DMSP: sychronizing speech and non-speech
[09:17:32] <pguenther> trying to determine energy and skill set
[09:17:43] <pguenther> 513b at 1pm Thursday
[09:17:57] <pguenther> WAE: web authentications enhancements
[09:18:08] <pguenther> two proposals received that seemed to be related
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[09:18:42] <pguenther> anti-phishing and cross-site identity assertion
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[09:19:03] <pguenther> not clear how many groups will result (0, 1, 2, N)
[09:19:16] <pguenther> HTTP bar bof to talk about extensions
[09:19:27] <bernard.desruisseaux> Pizza place: Il Focolaio Pizza Resto http://english.montrealplus.ca/portal/profile.do?profileID=490912
[09:19:45] <pguenther> (those are separate, WAE vs http bar bof)
[09:20:29] <pguenther> <brief intermission for presentation tranfer>
[09:21:13] <pguenther> Pete Resnick: WAE introduction
[09:22:27] <pguenther> "Computers are hard., let's go shopping"
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[09:23:00] <dcrocker> Pizza place bof is what evening?
[09:23:15] <Lisa> Tonight.
[09:23:18] <dcrocker> tnx
[09:23:19] <Lisa> 8:15.
[09:23:35] <randy gellens> when is wae?
[09:23:46] <randy gellens> oh, Friday
[09:23:47] <pguenther> WAE: Friday, 9am
[09:23:54] <pguenther> problems to solve:
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[09:24:26] <pguenther> 1) identify myself to a web site (i.e., log in so tha the web site knows I'm the same person as before)
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[09:25:08] <pguenther> q: cross-time or cross-site? A: maybe!
[09:25:17] <pguenther> 2) give my personal information to a web site
[09:25:41] <pguenther> (name, rank, serial number, kid's names, age, address, etc)
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[09:25:50] <pguenther> would like to interoperate
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[09:26:13] <pguenther> current schemes use heuristics or are arbitrary
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[09:26:36] <pguenther> ekr: part of issue the abililty to assert without being able lie?
[09:27:24] <pguenther> pete: maybe; some sites need that
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[09:28:59] <pigdog> it would be ridiculous if it just worked only on http
[09:29:36] <pguenther> bob morgan: just web, just HTTP services, or both?
[09:29:50] <pguenther> or more than that?
[09:30:00] <pguenther> pete: still unclear
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[09:30:09] <pguenther> pete: constraints:
[09:30:26] <pigdog> no that's not right
[09:30:30] <pigdog> nevermind
[09:30:33] <pigdog> he's stating the problem
[09:30:34] <pguenther> - prevent proxying of credentials
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[09:30:58] <pguenther> - prevent others from seeing personal info
[09:31:19] <pguenther> - prevent web site from seeing stuff you don't want to given to them
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[09:32:22] <pguenther> - have 3rd party verification of personal information (e.g., age proofs)
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[09:33:44] <pigdog> can't hear dave
[09:33:57] <pguenther> - have 3rd party holding information to e.g., provide ease of portability
[09:34:26] <pigdog> please ask dave to speak into the mike!
[09:34:27] <pguenther> Pete: list given were requests, not necessarily requirements
[09:34:49] <pguenther> getting them all might involve "boiling the ocean"
[09:35:57] <pguenther> bob morgan: solutions to individual issues already exist and standarized
[09:36:19] <pguenther> ekr's taxonomy:
[09:36:38] <pguenther> - CRC: capture resistant credentials
[09:36:39] <randy gellens> Can't we use the terms themselves, rather than the acronyms?
[09:36:56] <pigdog> audio?!
[09:37:24] <pguenther> will do
[09:37:32] <pigdog> thx
[09:37:51] <pguenther> Kurt Z: do credentials include identifier or just "password"?
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[09:38:31] <pguenther> erk: just about impersonation
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[09:38:45] <Hollenbeck> Is anyone else having problems (reported as network problems by both Real Player and Windows Media Player) connecting to the audio stream?
[09:39:08] <pigdog> (there's some background distortion)
[09:39:21] <pguenther> - HRA: hijack resistant authentication
[09:39:23] <pigdog> like a 20 hertz hum or something
[09:39:37] <pguenther> (cut-n-paste of credentials onto other requests)
[09:39:51] <pguenther> - PC: portable credentials
[09:40:18] <pguenther> want to be able to use credentials from different machine
[09:40:28] <pguenther> - FPI: fill-in of personal information
[09:40:38] <pguenther> - CUC: common user credentials
[09:41:04] <pigdog> NOTE- it may not be possible to prevent collusion!!
[09:41:07] <pguenther> want to be able to identify to multiple sites as me: same 'key' usable with diferent sites
[09:41:27] <pigdog> between two web servers
[09:41:30] <pigdog> (or services)
[09:41:38] <pguenther> on which item?
[09:41:43] <pigdog> if they want to share your credentials, what can you do?
[09:41:45] <pguenther> re: collusion
[09:41:48] <pigdog> (right
[09:42:01] <pguenther> ekr clarifies
[09:42:12] <pguenther> this is for CUC?
[09:42:15] <pguenther> or CRC
[09:42:16] <pguenther> ?
[09:42:21] <pigdog> ekr clarified well
[09:42:30] <rlbob> standard methods are already deployed that reduce collusion enough in practical scenarios to meet many people's needs
[09:42:38] <randy gellens> I thought it was Portable Cred
[09:42:58] <pguenther> ...skipping ahead...
[09:43:24] <pguenther> Dave Crocker: never heard of certs as "user friendly names"
[09:43:48] <pguenther> Pete: they aren't, but they can helkp
[09:44:07] <pguenther> Paul Hoffman: protocol can tie names to certs
[09:44:26] <pguenther> - AEC: assertion of external claims
[09:44:52] <pguenther> assertions about real world: age, citizenship, location, ..
[09:45:30] <pguenther> .- IAC: independent assertion of claims
[09:45:45] <pguenther> abilty to only give subset of assertions to each site
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[09:45:59] <pguenther> - PA: private authentication
[09:46:26] <pguenther> abilty to have 3rd party hold bits, but they are unable to figure out what they're proving for you
[09:46:36] <pguenther> (opacity of assertions, etc)
[09:47:09] <pguenther> ekr: 1) split between assertor vs opaque holder
[09:47:35] <pguenther> 2) inability to figure out what is being done with it
[09:48:11] <pguenther> Ted Hardie: derivable attributes? (assert less than what you can)
[09:48:57] <pguenther> ekr: this would be boiling the ocean, or major rocket science
[09:49:30] <pguenther> reading list for background:
[09:49:39] <pguenther> DIX list
[09:50:00] <pguenther> ekr message there is linked to from the appsarea agenda
[09:50:09] <pguenther> s/ekr/ekr's/
[09:50:47] <julian.reschke> http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dix/current/msg00712.html
[09:50:54] <pguenther> bingo
[09:51:05] <pguenther> Jeff Hodges: lots of outside work
[09:51:12] <pguenther> *lots*
[09:51:16] <pguenther> no, even more than that
[09:51:43] <pigdog> CLEARLY NOT or we wouldn't be here
[09:52:18] <pguenther> Jeff Hodges: more than DIX drafts. he sent out a draft just recently on SAML related stuff
[09:52:45] <pguenther> answers a bunch of objections to existing SAML profilse
[09:53:16] <pguenther> Pete: not all objections _should_ be addressed
[09:53:35] <martin.thomson> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hodges-saml-lsso-00.txt
[09:53:36] <pguenther> draft-hodges-saml-lsso-00
[09:53:43] <pguenther> thank you, martin
[09:54:08] <pguenther> in-band vs out-of-band vs anti-phishing (?)
[09:54:19] <pigdog> that was well put
[09:54:44] <Lisa> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hartman-webauth-00.txt
[09:54:51] <Lisa> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hartman-webauth-phishing-01.txt
[09:55:21] <pguenther> pigdog: previous work doesn't equal existing solution...
[09:55:33] <pguenther> (all to common a fact)
[09:55:39] <pguenther> s/to/too/
[09:55:51] <pigdog> pguenther: agree
[09:56:19] <pigdog> are slides available online?
[09:56:54] * pguenther twists pete's arm
[09:57:36] <pguenther> John Klensin: further directions for IDN
[09:57:48] <pguenther> draft-iab-idn-nextsteps-06.txt
[09:57:54] <pguenther> overview
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[09:58:05] <rlbob> part of the problem is that the web is so big that even stuff that looks widely-deployed to some appears non-existent to others
[09:58:07] <pguenther> (john, not IAB speaking)
[09:58:16] <pguenther> issues:
[09:58:34] <pguenther> - do not have solutions other than education and awareness
[09:58:40] <pguenther> or
[09:58:47] <pguenther> - getting the problem out of the DNS
[09:59:18] <pguenther> the IAB report:
[09:59:35] <pguenther> identifies issues and who should look at them
[09:59:40] <pguenther> <...>
[09:59:58] <pguenther> problems with *using* IDNA and IDNs
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[10:00:06] <pguenther> - character spoofing and similarities
[10:00:12] <pguenther> - can't be fixed technically
[10:00:19] <pguenther> - hard to design policies for many cases
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[10:00:31] <pguenther> - transcription from written form
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[10:00:45] <pguenther> creates more ways to mislead
[10:00:56] <pguenther> (the transcription bit)
[10:01:03] <pguenther> main issues and conclusions
[10:01:27] <pguenther> - IDNA, especially the tables, needs another look
[10:01:34] <pguenther> - needs stable normalization
[10:01:46] <pguenther> (can't change Unicode version!)
[10:02:02] <pguenther> - need more restricted permitted characters
[10:02:07] <pguenther> list
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[10:02:20] <Simon Josefsson> Is this presentation available online? I can't find it on the official site. thanks.
[10:02:30] <pguenther> - another look at level above DNS
[10:02:38] <pguenther> How to proceed
[10:02:54] <pguenther> - stable normalization (unassigned code points as errors)
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[10:03:52] <pguenther> issue: libraries simplify but not clear to the user what what policy is implemented
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[10:04:14] <Jelte> i don't think so, simon
[10:04:18] <pguenther> - character list:L start with Unicode "identifier characters"
[10:04:40] <Lisa> Presentations are now online on the official site.
[10:04:50] <pguenther> Ted: how many is that?
[10:05:02] <pguenther> John: includes CJK, so 20k plus?
[10:05:19] <pguenther> Ted: not back to easy "side of bus" handling
[10:05:48] <Simon Josefsson> Found it. Thanks, Lisa!
[10:06:30] <pguenther> John: getting rid of puncutation, stuff not used in languages (no music, dingbats, boxes)
[10:06:39] <pguenther> and lots of stuff that just looks like other stuff
[10:07:30] <pguenther> Randy Gellens: does this pruning really help?
[10:08:20] <pguenther> John: lots of side effects to various inclusion/exclusions
[10:08:59] <pguenther> retrospect: should have _only_ permitted casefolding, all other normalization
[10:09:06] <pguenther> causes problems
[10:09:38] <pguenther> Paul Hoffman: no, pruning doesn't prevent spoofing as lots of problems will be left in
[10:10:29] <pguenther> Paul: but will prevent future problems
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[10:11:06] <pguenther> John: strongest argument is that complexity is not our friend
[10:12:23] <pguenther> John: no magic bullets
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[10:12:54] <pguenther> Ted: what do we need to do now?
[10:12:59] <pguenther> we == IETF
[10:13:29] <pguenther> does this affect _all_ uses of UTF-8?
[10:13:42] <pguenther> john: need to revist stringprep
[10:14:15] <Hollenbeck> stringprep? or just nameprep?
[10:14:41] <pguenther> need to revisit uses of stringprep to see what stuff should stable NKFC vs NKFC
[10:14:52] <Hollenbeck> (sorry if I'm missing the conversation, no audio here.)
[10:15:32] <pguenther> definitely stringprep
[10:15:43] <pguenther> the right tables aren't in stringprep
[10:15:49] <pguenther> so nothing for nameprep to reference
[10:15:58] <Hollenbeck> ok, makes sense. thanks.
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[10:17:22] <pguenther> John: need housecleaning in stringprep and its table paradigm as it doesn' t match reality of implemations
[10:17:25] <pguenther> (or something like that)
[10:20:12] <pguenther> UTF-8 version of NVT for FTP and other stuff hit issues
[10:20:21] <pguenther> stuff moving into step in the last three weeks
[10:20:32] <pigdog> LOUDER
[10:20:58] <pguenther> that better?
[10:21:02] <pigdog> only a little
[10:21:19] <pigdog> maybe someone needs to turn the gain on that mike up
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[10:21:38] <pguenther> Dave Crocker: design team only to refine list of identifier characters?
[10:21:45] <pguenther> John: yes
[10:21:51] <pguenther> Dave: big space to work in
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[10:22:31] <pguenther> Dave: design team will see lines to decisions with tradeoffs and will produce tech spec
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[10:22:44] <pguenther> Dave: but that will be too much too soon
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[10:23:20] <pguenther> Dave: they should describe the approach (to the community) and before details
[10:24:03] <pguenther> John: we're neck deep in the big muddy; Unicode Consortium said "we understand issues, trust us!"
[10:24:20] <pguenther> we listened to them, but they donj't understand internet _or_ DNS
[10:24:55] <pguenther> people there actually took stance that they didn't need to understand, or that errors were internet's or IETF's fault
[10:25:02] <pguenther> ...and should be fixed there
[10:26:09] <pguenther> most useful result may be guidence to UTC
[10:26:37] <pguenther> Dave: so, don't choose characters, tell UTF how to pick them?
[10:26:39] <pguenther> John: yes
[10:27:39] <pguenther> Dave: so, agree on big picture advice?
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[10:29:50] <pigdog> sure
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[10:31:13] <bernard.desruisseaux> <guenther takes over bernard's keyboard after losing net>
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[10:31:52] <bernard.desruisseaux> Paul: UTC's identifiers is for programming languages, not for DNS
[10:32:01] <bernard.desruisseaux> not a good match
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[10:32:35] <bernard.desruisseaux> John: drive UTC to create new identifiers standard?
[10:32:50] <bernard.desruisseaux> dissension inside UTC?
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[10:33:46] <bernard.desruisseaux> SC22 thinks UTC botched a bunch of stuff on the progamming lang side even
[10:34:11] <bernard.desruisseaux> Paul: look at our own requirements and do our own?
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[10:35:13] <bernard.desruisseaux> Ted: asks John for list of actions to be performed by community
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[10:36:32] <pguenther> Ted: stringprep reopened? UTF-8 (full standard!) reopened?
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[10:37:28] <pguenther> John: UTF-8 doesn't need to change, but applicability may
[10:37:35] <pguenther> End of presentation
[10:37:49] <pguenther> Open Mike:
[10:38:10] <pguenther> Ted: NOMCOM
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[10:38:31] <pigdog> CAN'T HEAR.
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[10:39:06] <pguenther> no one has items to discuss
[10:39:09] <pigdog> ok, thx
[10:39:13] <pigdog> thanks for jabbering!
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