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[09:19:20] <Dave Cridland> Morning all.
[09:19:45] <Julian Reschke> Good morning.
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[09:49:21] <Dave Cridland> Should the audio be up yet?
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[09:59:31] <resnick> Does the mic work out there?
[09:59:45] <Julian Reschke> yes
[09:59:49] <resnick> (Scott was just speaking)
[09:59:52] <resnick> Cool.
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[10:01:25] <resnick> Intros: Welcome Lisa Dusseault as new AD.
[10:01:34] <resnick> Paul note taking. Me scribing.
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[10:01:46] <resnick> (as in, jabber scribing)
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[10:01:53] <resnick> Agenda bashing.
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[10:02:03] <Lisa> Hola.
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[10:02:24] <resnick> Are the agenda slides on the web site?
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[10:02:30] <resnick> Or do I have to type?
[10:02:30] <Dave Cridland> Yes.
[10:02:33] <resnick> Good.
[10:02:38] <resnick> Someone post the URL.
[10:02:46] <Dave Cridland> And they work in OpenOffice, too.
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[10:02:57] <Dave Cridland> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=65
[10:03:14] <resnick> EDIINT closed down.
[10:03:24] * resnick cheers
[10:03:31] <resnick> GEOPRIV and SIMPLE moved to RAI
[10:03:37] <resnick> DirDir cancelled.
[10:03:54] <resnick> Kurt Zelinga comes to mic.
[10:04:15] <resnick> Informal discussions of LDAP stuff in the dirdir jabber room.
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[10:04:32] <resnick> New split of areas for ADs:
[10:04:36] <resnick> Ted:
[10:04:38] <resnick> Crisp
[10:04:40] <resnick> EAI
[10:04:44] <resnick> LDAPBIS
[10:04:48] <resnick> LEMONADE
[10:04:50] <resnick> LTRU
[10:04:51] <resnick> OPES
[10:04:53] <resnick> WEBDAV
[10:04:56] <resnick> Lisa:
[10:04:59] <resnick> ATOMPUB
[10:05:01] <resnick> CALSIFY
[10:05:02] <resnick> DIX
[10:05:05] <resnick> IMAPEXT
[10:05:05] <resnick> SIEVE
[10:05:07] <resnick> USEFOR
[10:05:09] <resnick> WIDEX
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[10:05:20] <resnick> (DIX not yet approved)
[10:05:38] <Dave Cridland> I was just about to type what Barry just asked.
[10:05:41] <resnick> Barry Leiba: How about LEMONADE and IMAPEXT under same AD?
[10:05:57] <resnick> Answer: We'll see.
[10:06:00] <resnick> New stuff:
[10:06:10] <resnick> EAI is now a WG.
[10:06:47] <resnick> Meeting today 1740-1950 Chantilly W
[10:06:52] <resnick> (Change from slides.)
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[10:07:43] <resnick> Looking for a co-chair for EAI
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[10:08:23] <resnick> Talking about the work plan - Will likely go experimental before standards track.
[10:08:42] <hardie@qualcomm.com> It's chartered to go experimental
[10:08:45] <resnick> DIX tomorrow 0900-1130 Chantilly W.
[10:08:50] <hardie@qualcomm.com> With standards track only after re-charter
[10:09:11] <resnick> Dave Crocker: What problem is DIX solving?
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[10:09:46] <eludom> Paul Hoofman seconds
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[10:09:58] <eludom> deferred to open mike
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[10:10:20] <resnick> Paul Hoffman: Yes, discuss during open mic this meaning.
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[10:11:03] <resnick> Sorry, lost that last bit on HOAKEY. Connectivity issue.
[10:11:38] <resnick> CRISP: Internet Routing registry proposal discussion:
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[10:12:41] <tonyhansen> hoakey might be of interest to apps folks, fomerly preauth bof, thursday am
[10:13:35] <resnick> IRR:
[10:14:00] --- LOGGING STARTED
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[10:15:55] <nsb> Most people are in a diferent room. But now there are three of us in this room.
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[10:16:24] <resnick> I think there must have been a net drop. This was the room I was in before, I think.
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[10:16:42] <resnick> Talking about IRR mirroring issue.
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[10:16:59] <resnick> Exchanging their registry databases.
[10:17:16] * Hollenbeck has set the topic to: APPAREA Open Meeting
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[10:18:43] <resnick> No propagation, which is not terribly scalable.
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[10:20:08] <resnick> simply copying around of databases
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[10:20:27] * resnick tries to figure out exactly what the import here is
[10:21:11] <Hollenbeck> I believe he's describing an issue with data consistency, Pete.
[10:21:43] <resnick> Well, that part I got. I'm just trying to figure out if there's more than, "There's no protocol for this stuff, so we need one."
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[10:22:51] <Hollenbeck> That does seem to be the primary motivation to help overcome the conssistency issues.
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[10:23:22] <resnick> New global IRR system
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[10:24:30] <resnick> Commenter: ARIN doesn't support RADB
[10:24:56] * resnick reminds people that he did say he would do a half-assed jabber scribing job. :(
[10:25:06] <resnick> Connectivity issues are not helping.
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[10:25:50] <resnick> Slide: EPP and CRISP (for those playing at home)
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[10:28:41] <robsiemb> .
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[10:29:18] <resnick> George Michealson (CRISP chair):
[10:29:55] <resnick> Addressing is inherently hierarchical
[10:30:04] <resnick> exchange of routing info is not.
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[10:30:37] <resnick> This is operational stuff. Is that appropriate for the IETF?
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[10:31:21] <resnick> Q: Why don't dynamic lookups work without mirroring?
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[10:32:21] <NFreed@jabber.org> I'm sure I'm just having a moment of blankness here, but can someone explain how this helps applications in general?
[10:32:41] <resnick> TLA problem: I wasn't able to parse the answer.
[10:33:05] <resnick> Geoff Huston: CRISP assumes the data block is unique against a key.
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[10:33:39] <resnick> IRR system has no (NO!) implicit understanding that the prefixes are unique across databases.
[10:33:57] <Hollenbeck> Ned: I think the idea was more about use of an existing application, not so much about helping applications.
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[10:34:08] <resnick> What do you do about data inconsistency? This make problem worse.
[10:34:18] <resnick> Ted (from floor mic):
[10:35:03] <resnick> Is there some way to get policy data given prefix?
[10:35:07] <resnick> (I think)
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[10:36:12] <resnick> Geoff: Claim was that you'd have to resolve conflicts of policy because the policies are context-specific.
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[10:36:31] <resnick> Ted: Geoff does good up-leveling.
[10:36:52] <resnick> Ted: CRISP didn't see itself as the right group for this work.
[10:37:42] <resnick> Ted: Do you agree that this is contextual, or do you want to make it non-contextual? Is this a need from the routing community?
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[10:38:58] <resnick> Question about whether the data is "not correct" or simply "contextual".
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[10:39:15] <resnick> JP ops currently see the info as "incorrect".
[10:39:34] <resnick> (That was George)
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[10:39:59] <resnick> Geoff: You don't always push out the same RPSL (right acronym) blob all the time.
[10:40:11] <eludom> George: what people want to publish globally may be (is) different from what they share with each other or use internally
[10:40:31] <resnick> RPSL or RDSL?
[10:40:46] <eludom> Geoff: mirroring makes collisions overt.
[10:40:52] <resnick> Andre (RIPE):
[10:41:20] <resnick> Agree that now global registry is possible.
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[10:41:48] <resnick> However, could split into two problems.
[10:42:32] <resnick> Allison Mankin: There is a difference between policy info and the correctness of routes.
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[10:44:09] <resnick> Allison: Could create a protocol for correctness (hijacking problem) and maybe think about what IRIS can do.
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[10:44:48] <eludom> Ted Hardie summaries: use cases in japan may be different than other areas
[10:44:49] <resnick> Ted: Sounds like use cases are different in JP, and maybe we can split the problem.
[10:44:58] <resnick> (Thx eludom) :)
[10:45:05] <eludom> sure:-)
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[10:45:34] <resnick> Maybe go talk to SIDR about this stuff.
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[10:46:25] <resnick> Geoff (also SIDR chair): Please read charter and see if you can bring this in.
[10:46:27] <eludom> Ted suggests that maybe an INFO draft documenting us in japan would be the right way to go
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[10:47:14] <resnick> George: CRISP thought it would be useful to develop XML for CRISP/IRIS mechanisms.
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[10:49:33] <eludom> Ted: future discussion will take place in routing area
[10:49:47] <resnick> Next topic: Klensin on FTP i18n
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[10:50:26] <resnick> Klensin: Looked at FTP (2640) in the course of EAI discussions
[10:50:56] <resnick> 2640 doesn't internationalize content. Only does directory and files.
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[10:51:24] <resnick> Distinction between text (TYPE A) and binary (TYPE I)
[10:51:58] <resnick> Except for CR LF, little difference between type A and I nowadays.
[10:52:13] <resnick> Now, things are more complicated due to character sets.
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[10:52:51] <resnick> Question: Is it time to invent a third type, e.g., UTF-8 with a "standard" CRLF.
[10:52:53] <resnick> ?
[10:53:07] <resnick> Is there interest?
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[10:53:45] <eludom> actual work is small, but want more support if it is to be done (e.g. a small team)
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[10:54:24] <eludom> George Michaelson: just deprecate type a
[10:55:22] <nico> no crlf conversions?
[10:55:23] <resnick> Klensin: Users (and secretariat) still have issues with EOL problems.
[10:55:23] <Dave Cridland> No, FTP transferring ASCII mode is useful, it allows things like script files (CGI, etc) to be uploaded to servers safely.
[10:55:51] <nico> how does binary transfer not allow safe transfer of scripts?
[10:55:52] <nico> ?
[10:55:57] <Dave Cridland> An alternate question is: COuld TYPE A be reinvented safely to do UTF-8 conversion?
[10:56:15] <Dave Cridland> nico: Not all script interpreters can handle weird line terminations.
[10:56:18] <nico> UTF-8 conversion to/from what?
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[10:56:57] <nico> dave: compile... :^/
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[10:57:22] <Dave Cridland> I used to, a while back.
[10:58:01] <eludom> interest in room appears to be low
[10:58:17] <nico> SFTP is dealing with various conversions
[10:58:36] <nico> if FTP were to deprecate CRLF conversions then I wonder whether SECSH WG ought to bother
[10:58:53] <nico> why should these two protocols be different w.r.t. CRLF conversion?
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[11:01:14] <eludom> George Michaelson: don't solve as a point problem in FTP
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[11:05:28] <eludom> Paul Hoffman: should IETF or unicode forum do this ?
[11:05:38] <eludom> answer: IETF
[11:05:58] <nico> what's "this"? FTP I18N? yes, IETF
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[11:07:07] <eludom> time for a "unicode NVT" ?
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[11:11:10] * Hollenbeck has set the topic to: DMSP, Chris Cross
[11:11:20] <resnick> Catching up. Connection problem:
[11:11:29] <resnick> Not UTF-8 conversion, but UTF-8 transfer mode with proper EOL.
[11:11:31] <Dave Cridland> Are Chris's slides available anywhere?
[11:11:37] <resnick> Pete Resnick: Not much support for this in the room.
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[11:11:45] <Hollenbeck> I'll upload them now -- hold on
[11:11:47] <resnick> Maybe check with FTP people
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[11:11:54] <resnick> Klensin: Real issue is having a canonical text form to deal with all of the different charsets on different file systems
[11:12:00] <resnick> Elwyn Davis: Might be useful in other contexts?
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[11:12:10] <resnick> John: Point solution
[11:12:16] <resnick> But might need a "standard text file format".
[11:12:25] <resnick> John's answer to question: IETF is place to do that, not Unicode Consortium.
[11:12:25] <nico> file systems often don't define a single charset for file contents
[11:12:29] <nico> no Unix filesystems do
[11:12:37] <resnick> John will write up a problem statement.
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[11:12:43] <resnick> Mark Andrews (sp?) agrees that we should
[11:12:48] <nico> and neither do Windows filesystems (though the latter do define a charset for file/directory names)
[11:12:54] <resnick> Next:
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[11:13:03] <resnick> Chris Cross on Distributed Multimodal Sychronization Protocol (DMSP)
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[11:13:36] <resnick> Scott: Post URL when you've got it.
[11:14:01] <Dave Cridland> On datatracker, just got them
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[11:14:18] <Dave Cridland> (In other words: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=65 )
[11:14:23] <resnick> Up to "DMSP Architecture" slide.
[11:14:32] <Hollenbeck> Yup, that's it.
[11:14:58] <Hollenbeck> http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06mar/slides/apparea-1.ppt
[11:15:31] <Hollenbeck> ppt format only at the moment
[11:16:31] <resnick> Does anyone need me to print to PDF?
[11:16:38] <Dave Cridland> Works okay in OpenOffice.
[11:17:27] <resnick> Someone care to up-level this a bit?
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[11:18:14] <NFreed@jabber.org> Up-level? This is so high up I'm getting a nosebleed.
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[11:18:34] <NFreed@jabber.org> (The prezo also opens fine in NeoOffice FWIW.)
[11:19:15] <resnick> OK, down-level: What's this stuff good for?
[11:20:07] <nsb> I think the goal is essentially synchronizing independent communication streams.\
[11:20:07] <Dave Cridland> I'm still trying to figure out what it's actually doing, as such.
[11:20:41] <Dave Cridland> nsb: Ah. I thought it was trying to synchronize distributed components.
[11:21:12] <nsb> Well, yes, but I'm trying to get at the *why*
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[11:22:01] <NFreed@jabber.org> Now we've gone from ,37000 feet to the protocol nitty-gritty.
[11:22:16] * resnick is getting queasy
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[11:23:15] <resnick> This'll teach me for not getting a computer science degree, apparently.
[11:24:09] <ggm> I have one and its not helping me much
[11:24:23] <Dave Cridland> Pete: You needn't follow this, though, it'll never work - no 'X' in the acronym.
[11:24:45] <resnick> heh
[11:24:46] <Dave Cridland> Has anyone else lost the audio stream or is it just me?
[11:24:58] <Dave Cridland> (Not that this is making it any harder to follow, BTW)
[11:25:12] <kmurchison> i also lost it. just getting '400' errors from the server
[11:25:25] <robsiemb> So is this basicly "xwindows for mobile devices" ?
[11:25:29] <NFreed@jabber.org> I suggest looking at the draft: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-engelsma-dmsp-01.txt
[11:25:56] <Dave Cridland> Ned: What, read the draft *before* making comments? A bit radical.
[11:26:10] <NFreed@jabber.org> Rob: Yes, that's the sense I'm getting, with the twist being that it's voice-based.
[11:27:49] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> I think it is more the "press or say one" issue--where you might use either voice (say one) or using a gui (pressing the button)
[11:28:32] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> Vlad is now discussing the widex relationship
[11:28:36] <fenton> Think: "press one to see the movie trailer"
[11:29:11] <Dave Cridland> The draft seems to mention using both buttons (or touchscreen) and speech at the same time.
[11:29:12] <NFreed@jabber.org> Ted: Is that really true? The draft seems focused on there being two separate browsers, not on one browser being used in
[11:29:19] <NFreed@jabber.org> multiple modes.
[11:29:21] <kmurchison> Dave: my audio is back
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[11:30:00] <NFreed@jabber.org> And the underlying protocol seems to be all about lashing two different things together.
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[11:31:22] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> nfreed: I believe they want to be able to use this either in a single multi-mode browser or in multiple browsers.
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[11:31:53] <NFreed@jabber.org> Ted: OK, that makes sense.
[11:32:07] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> the same model, that is.
[11:32:32] <resnick> Silly discussion of acronym collision.
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[11:32:39] <resnick> Chris: Will go look at WIDEX.
[11:32:42] <robsiemb> There's still hope to use an X after all
[11:33:00] <fenton> There are good reasons for both single and multiple browsers. You might want to watch that movie trailer on your multimodal phone or on the PC next to your old phone.
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[11:34:00] <NFreed@jabber.org> Also very useful as a help desk facility. But the security issues are going to be, well, interesting.
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[11:35:02] <NFreed@jabber.org> Long before VNC, there was an app called Planet X that let someone remote control a Mac. We had an incident
[11:35:26] <NFreed@jabber.org> where a novice user ran out of their office yelling that their machine was haunted.
[11:35:38] <Hollenbeck> http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dix/current/msg00439.html
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[11:35:46] * Hollenbeck has set the topic to: Open Mic
[11:35:48] <eludom> open mic, back to "what problem is DIX solving"
[11:36:32] <Hollenbeck> Problem Statement The Internet is host to many online information sources and services. There is a growing demand for users to identify, and provide information about themselves. Users bear the burden of managing their own authentication materials and repeatedly providing their identity information. Signing in to web pages and completing user registration forms is an example.
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[11:39:38] <resnick> Switched to CDMA. Slower, but more reliable (apparently) than the 802.11b.
[11:40:01] <eludom> Motivation: lots of adhoc, low/no security current practice
[11:40:46] <resnick> Chris Newman: There is a Liberty Alliance working on the web browser case.
[11:40:56] <nico> that's not a sufficient problem statement
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[11:41:14] <nico> it seems to be getting at "passwords suck" -- if that's the problem, let's be specific
[11:41:27] <resnick> Chris: 3-party model where the client is not a web browser is not yet something that's being worked on.
[11:41:42] <NFreed@jabber.org> Pete: Yeah, I lost useful 802.11B about 45 minutes back. Switched to EVDO then, seems to be working fine.
[11:41:45] * eludom summarized lots of verbiage in a few words
[11:42:00] <Barry Leiba> Not quite: passwords assume that the target has a userid/password for you.
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[11:42:12] <resnick> Bob Morgan: Not entirely web.
[11:42:21] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> They are running 802.11a as well, if anyone has that available.
[11:42:26] <nico> yes, the web is not the only issue
[11:42:34] <Barry Leiba> The point of this is being able to bounce the auth to some entity that DOES know you, so it can be used by on that doesn't.
[11:42:38] <nico> we need identity and credentials to be useful in many contexts
[11:42:57] <NFreed@jabber.org> Ted: I had a catastrophic laptop failure and haven't had time to fiddle with 802.11A yet.
[11:42:57] <nico> I should be able to use the same ID in my corporate network for file services, web services, etc...
[11:43:06] <resnick> Did Hannes say they were doing some of this stuff in SIP?
[11:43:14] <nico> I should be able to use other identities for non-corporate services
[11:43:21] <nico> even for file services
[11:43:26] <cabo--tzi--org@jabber.org> Hannes said that want to use SAML in SIP.
[11:43:34] <resnick> Eric Burger/Bob: Discussing whether there's anything to do with URLAUTH (seem LEMONADE).
[11:43:37] <fenton> 802.11a does seem stable (I hesitate to say that though)
[11:43:39] <resnick> End of meeting.
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[11:44:01] <nico> (think AFS-like global namespaces, like NFSv4 WG is working on)
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[11:44:15] <nico> requesting channeling services...
[11:44:16] <nico> :)
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[11:46:19] <nico> what's with jabber?
[11:46:38] <eludom> meeting over
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