Friday, July 30, 2021< ^ >
Room Configuration
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[18:52:32] dhruvdhody has set the subject to: IETF 111 APN BOF
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[18:52:47] <dhruvdhody> Me!
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[18:53:11] <Adrian Farrel_web_934> Dhruv proves his usefulness yet again
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[18:53:28] <dhruvdhody> :-D
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[18:58:25] <mcr> do a mic test!
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[18:59:14] <mcr> Adrian, I am more interesting in the general decor.
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[18:59:27] <Jeffrey Haas_web_126> Adrian, just means you're not spending enough time authoring books.
[18:59:28] <mcr> Like , look at the interesting colours of your books.
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[18:59:44] <mcr> @jeffrey, or maybe he wants to know how many of us have his book?
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[18:59:48] <Jen Linkova_web_744> Yeah, my reading reduced dramatically too - no more 14hrs flights..;(
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[19:00:04] <Olaf Kolkman_web_932> Aha it is a trick... When I zoom into your bookshelf Adrian I see books you authored...  you want us to buy your books !
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[19:03:36] <Kireeti Kompella_web_499> is "mute you all" a mutual sentiment?
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[19:04:14] <Watson Ladd_web_701> i'm skeptical about this plan
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[19:05:21] <Daniel King_web_174> Then we should seek a mutual settlement.
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[19:16:15] <Lars Eggert_web_364> to help me check if i have the right mental model of this: could an instantiation of this architecture use a packet classifier that then tunneled a given packet, and apply a diffserv mark to the outside of the tunneled packet?
[19:16:31] <mcr> @Lars, I think so.
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[19:17:30] <Spencer Dawkins_web_685> @Lars - I HOPE so. If it's not doing that, what else could it be using? /me wonders.
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[19:18:02] <Adrian Farrel_web_934> @Lars, that is how I understand the separation of function at the edge into APN edge and APN head
[19:18:16] <Lars Eggert_web_364> thanks all
[19:18:22] <Spencer Dawkins_web_685> So, when the port number is always 443 ...
[19:18:23] <> What Lars describes seems consistent with the understanding I am
gaining from the presentation so far.
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[19:18:41] <Stewart Bryant_web_274> .. assuming that diff serve is a sufficiently sophisticated QoS indicator
[19:18:46] <Jana Iyengar_web_243> I'm wondering what more this does.
[19:19:02] <Cedric Westphal_web_342> Is the APN node a router or a server?
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[19:19:25] <Joey Salazar_web_755> I'm wondering about that "etc" in the attribute fields....
[19:19:40] <Spencer Dawkins_web_685> @Stewart, if that's accurate, I can switch to a conflictiing meeting with a clear conscience
[19:19:52] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_108> Isn't Diffserv manipualted inconsistently in routers so using it is not reliable now?
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[19:20:37] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> @Antoine: there is no mandatory IETFrequirement to configure DiffServ inconsistently ;-)
[19:20:43] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Lars, yes, that is the case.
[19:20:57] <Stewart Bryant_web_274> I think we need a more sophisticated ingress marker to specify the required behaviour
[19:21:01] <Tarek Saad_web_966> there's a lot of similarity in what a network needs to do to support network slices and what seems required from it to do to support APN
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[19:21:43] <mcr> @Antoine, but 90% of networks are consistent, and in any case, all of this APN would be occuring within a (set of) cooperating operators.
[19:21:49] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> @Aontoine: Kidding aside, there are a lot more network features easily inconsistent if configured manually.
[19:22:13] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Jana, with this added attribute, policy can be enforced at the policy enforcement points within the APN domain, such as traffic steering or IOAM
[19:22:17] <Ted Hardie_web_575> How large is the space of APN attributes?  If the data on the previous slide were enough to identify and individual (e.g. by physical port), could the attribute carry a user identifier?
[19:22:23] <Jen Linkova_web_744> 5 tuple vs thing to inspect - oh, it's called MPLS ;)
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[19:22:31] <Stewart Bryant_web_274> Why do we need to restrict ourselves to deducing the required behaviour rather than introducing a method for the application to specify what it needs
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[19:22:35] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Cedric, the APN node is a router within the APN network domain
[19:22:42] <Erik Kline_web_730> @linkova: I was thinking the same thing
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[19:22:53] <mcr> @Ted, it's a good question. @Jen, they claim that a single MPLS label isn't enough. But, haven't gotten a reply to why a stack of MPLS labels couldn't be used.
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[19:23:08] <Jari Arkko_web_150> @Jana: You asked what more is done. I'd observe that if all ports are 443 and all packets are destined to Amazon & friends, and all connections are fully encrypted, I don't think there's other things the network even could do. But maybe there's another question of whether we need a new mechanism to handle 5-tuple mappings.
[19:23:13] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_108> @Toerless, sure, my point was mor ethat using Diffserv in the current situation would be placing faith in the fact diffserv is not manipulated in a way nobody knows exactly
[19:23:16] <Watson Ladd_web_701> A structured general tag seems incompatible with fast hardware handling to me. Also can't apply all preferences hop by hop iirc: this is not my strongest area.
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[19:23:28] <Ole Trøan_web_943> The "application" (or user) has no way to express "want" here right?
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[19:24:14] <mcr> @Ole, @Jari, despite the name, many proponents don't intend to connect to the application, or create an API. (I think they should do exactly that, and this belongs in ART)
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[19:24:18] <David Black_web_656> This has some structural similarities to Geneve (nvo3 network virtualization) - TLV header structure would accommodate APN attribute.
[19:24:46] <Stewart Bryant_web_274> @Antoine - depends on the trust between the host/application and the network
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[19:25:09] <Roland Bless_web_943> Currently, I don't see any difference to SFC or SR
[19:25:27] <Eduard V_web_805> DSCP has just 6bits. Here could be a much bigger granularity.
[19:25:29] <Watson Ladd_web_701> @David: i think the goal of this work is to make the contents of that per tunnel header? not terribly clear on this
[19:25:40] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> @Antoine: even as much as 5 years back, i have seen SDN controllers configuring per-5-tupl flow ACLs to give required service level objetives to individual users telephony 5-tuple flows.
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[19:26:08] <Tony Przygienda_web_515> @roland yep
[19:27:21] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> there are a myriad of mechanisms to achieve this, some better than others ... however how to express such "policies" so that a developper does not hardcode DSCP bits with a Excel spreadsheet on it's desk to know what mapping means what
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[19:28:32] <Adrian Farrel_web_934> @all Don't be afraid to wait for the later presentations to hear answers to detailed questions :o)
[19:28:44] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> :D
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[19:29:16] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_108> @Toerless, the problem with QoS, being that everybody believes his packets are special, I am not that astonished.
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[19:30:11] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> @Toerless: sure, and if they would pay the nework operator more money for that traffic, the operator would be happy to make them special. Right now thats just very difficult to buy at the granularity of VPNs.
[19:30:25] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> oops, @antoine.. not meaning to talk to myelf ;-)
[19:30:56] <Roland Bless_web_943> :-)
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[19:31:36] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_252> @Eduard - but a DSCP is associated with a treatment by the network (likely few), not a category of traffic (there could be many) - Many people think of a limited set of treatments, albeit with a complex classifcation at the edge - but do you need to carry the classification info in the packet, only the required treatment?
[19:31:47] <David Black_web_656> @Watson: Will be interesting to see what is emphasized in gap analysis.
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[19:32:29] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Tom, the states at the edge are always there for flow identification and classification. The good thing with APN is that at the APN edge an APN attribute is added and with attribute at the network intermediate nodes the table for policy enforcement is significantly reduced. Please pay attention to the use cases being presented.
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[19:33:33] <Tom Hill_web_186> I was paying attention, Shuping. Hence my question. :)
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[19:34:00] <Eduard V_web_805> Gorry, if the category would not receive special treatment - then what is the purpose of a category?
[19:34:07] <Jari Arkko_web_150> @watson @david I think what is being presented is largely usual policy application, the main question in my mind is whether we need a new mechanism for that. Earlier versions of APN went way beyond the usual policy application btw and had issues there, that does not seem to be a problem any more.
[19:34:35] <Dan Voyer_web_901> @Jari, good question
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[19:34:58] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Tarek, network slicing is just one network services that can be better supported by APN but APN is not bound to network slicing. There does not have to be network sicing within an APN domain.
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[19:36:24] <Lou Berger_web_111> why not mpls or SR without apn?
[19:36:52] <David Black_web_656> Wondering about what APN attribute will grow to - suspect that "structured attribute" is more accurate than "tag" and wonder how resulting resolution complexity will compare with 5-tuples being used as bogey in current preso.
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[19:37:09] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Ted, the APN attribute will be introduced in more details in the following presentation. The proper design of the APN attribute is one of the work that we will need to work on.  Your suggestions are always welcome.
[19:37:15] <Tom Hill_web_186> Ironically, I suspect that an SRv6 SID could completely replace APN.  Anything here that isn't covered by that?
[19:37:25] <Boris Khasanov_web_716> Might be that SPL in MPLS could be an APN attribute too
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[19:37:55] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_252> @Eduard: e.g. Classify IP fields  -> Class (traffic category) -> Per Hop Treatment  (indicated by DSCP)-> Schedular, traffic policing and other configured policy
[19:37:57] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> @Lou: if i wanted to get special treatment for my packets across my access SP to e.g.: the third-party edge-cloud content provider i am streaming from, which existing SR/MPLS policy signaling mechanism could i use ?
[19:38:03] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @Shuping. Thanks.  David's question has similar implications, so hopefully both aspects are addressed.
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[19:38:24] <Charles Eckel_web_741> I thought the first presentation said APN attributes were applicable within a single domain only, whereas this one focuses on its use across multiple domains. The requirements are very different for these two cases.
[19:38:34] <Russ White_web_329> I assume there will need to be some mechanism for the provider to be paid differently based on the kind of service the application is asking for ...  and the control plane will need to be modified to support these various kinds of paths ... I wonder what the additional complexity will be to go beyond "mark the packets and do fancy QoS" that seems to be implied here ...
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[19:39:03] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> @Lou: maybe this could be a good policy signaling mechanism to faster proliferate DetNet services into SPs ;-))
[19:39:17] <dhruvdhody> @Tom - I see APN trying to be agnostic and support multiple tunnel encapsulation include SRv6/IPv6
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[19:39:47] <Lou Berger_web_111> @toreless well that's another question, what does APN bring that isn't already being done within detnet
[19:39:52] <Jana Iyengar_web_243> What Charles said.
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[19:40:11] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @Greg I have optical service and wireless service from the same operator, and this would not be unusual for that operator, from what I can tell.
[19:40:11] <Tom Hill_web_186> @Dhruv, that's a fair point - though a whole new protocol? hmm.
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[19:40:31] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @Greg But I agree with your characterization of "single operator, multi domain".
[19:40:36] <> For what it's worth, I did perceive "only a single operator" from the
first presentation.
[19:40:40] <Tarek Saad_web_966> @Shuping Peng: what I meant the tools introduced to support network slicing are reusable to a big extent here in APN
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[19:40:41] <Jana Iyengar_web_243> I understand the request to not over-pivot on the name, but I'm struggling to understand how any of this is "application-aware" in the slightest.
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[19:40:48] <John Scudder_web_873> @Charles I believe the use of "domain" is very imprecise. The first speaker said it was applicable when multiple "domains" are owned by a single entity.
[19:41:01] <Watson Ladd_web_701> Why doesn't the head know how to encapsulate with the treatment that will be applied?
[19:41:05] <Eduard V_web_805> I do not agree with Greg. It is very often that a big Carrier has separate ASs (IGP, BGP) for the backbone and all metros.
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[19:41:19] <Lou Berger_web_111> very true
[19:41:21] <frodek> @charles, they used the term "APN domain", not "network domain"
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[19:41:35] <David Black_web_656> Expecting diffserv domain/region model and notion of cooperating operators to be applicable scopes.
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[19:41:39] <Uma Chunduri_web_827> @Greg Mirsky, I agree with Luis on this. Crossing operator boundaries when packet crossing metro is an exception. Lot of backhaul networks have multiple subdomains all maintained by same operators.
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[19:41:54] <Watson Ladd_web_701> Different AS's exchanging non IP traffic? didn't know that worked!
[19:41:57] <Ted Hardie_web_575> I am now convinced that 25 minutes is not going to be enough....
[19:42:11] <Ted Hardie_web_575> Can we speed through any of the other aspects?
[19:42:19] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> videos of speakers are nice!
[19:42:30] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Greg, the APN domain owned by a single operator is always clearly stated in the APN Introduction slides.
[19:43:18] <Bob Hinden_web_187> We will try, currently about 8 minutes ahead
[19:43:44] <Jen Linkova_web_744> I read the traffic steering slides as "there are multiple srv6 domains so need to do multiple 5 tuples lookups - but it can be one APN domain". I'm a bit confused why/how this happens..
[19:43:46] <Zhenbin Li_web_980> @Greg It has been explained in the introduction APN, the APN domain should be the network domains controlled by the same operators. The case to cross muliti domains controlled multi operators is out of the scope of the APN work.
[19:43:57] <mcr> I really think we should make HSS-LMS be the MTI for any device with an expected lifetime of more than about 2 years.  (Where smartphones fit into "2 years" is a marketing problem)
[19:44:06] <Watson Ladd_web_701> HSS-LMS?
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[19:44:12] <Bob Hinden_web_187> The flow label could be used for anything given that a tunnel is created
[19:44:21] <> mcr: are you typing into the room you thought you are?
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[19:44:32] <Roland Bless_web_943> @Bob: true
[19:44:41] <mcr> clearly, I wasn't. Sorry. That was for SUIT.... waiting for the open mic on APN.
[19:44:46] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Greg, I would not say that this is a rare case, and I thought you would be very farmiliar with this case since it is a very normal deployment case in China's network setup.  :p Generally the network in a country like China for example is always very large. It will go through multiple domains belonging to different department of the same operator.
[19:45:26] <Jen Linkova_web_744> 5 tuples are also used for load balancing, it doesn't prevent them being used for other things..
[19:45:26] <Zhenbin Li_web_980> @Jen I explained that in the introduction, the APN domain is a logic concept. In the physical environment, it can be network domains controlled by one operators.
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[19:45:33] <Martin Duke_web_770> I don't understand how the bullets for #2 answer the question
[19:45:33] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Jen, it doesnot have to be MPLS, it could be any payload protocol.
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[19:46:07] <Martin Duke_web_770> likewise #7
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[19:46:20] <Adrian Farrel_web_934> @Jana (wrt the name) I understand your point. Possibly it "delivers network performance appropriate for the network", but also possibly it really has just evolved and not changed its name as it went
[19:46:25] <mcr> @martin, the gap analysis document is also lacking conclusions, a comment I made months ago.
[19:46:40] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_252> I thought the previous speaker said the APN domains were all under the conrol of one oeprator, so doesn't that match the scope of the IOAM header?
[19:46:56] <Watson Ladd_web_701> Not sure why if you're going to update all your equipement to do this you don't make them all use the same tunneling solution
[19:47:07] <> Gorry: I think the scope matches, yes
[19:47:14] <Justin Iurman_web_849> +1 Gorry
[19:47:16] <Jana Iyengar_web_243> @Adrian -- That happens. But by the time it's a BoF, it's worth revisiting that, especially if everyone has to go out of their way to say "please don't pay attention to the name"
[19:47:18] <Watson Ladd_web_701> also China network very unique history and structure.
[19:47:24] <Jen Linkova_web_744> @Bob: +1. I'm not sure why the outer header flow label is not enough.
[19:47:33] <Watson Ladd_web_701> name changes are hard, but better sooner than later
[19:47:35] <Dirk Hugo_web_191> BTW SFC service Id draft is meanwhile rfc8979  :grin:
[19:47:38] <Jari Arkko_web_150> @martinduke I also don't see a conclusion for items except the DSCP one. They are used in specific situations. Wouldn't a new APN thing be also used in the specific APN networks?
[19:47:42] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Jari, with APN the 5-tuple mapping only happens at the APN edge. Within the APN domain, there is no need to that anymore. You can only use the APN attribute in the single field to do the policy enforcement and no need to do the further resolving of the 5 tuples.
[19:47:46] <Jari Arkko_web_150> Or am I missing something?
[19:48:19] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> comparison should include SRv6 independent from BSID, use of TLVs (srh, nsh, geneve, ...)
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[19:48:27] <Martin Duke_web_770> wait, aren't flow labels generic?
[19:48:45] <Zhenbin Li_web_980> @Gorry the IOAM is the policy enforcement in the backbone domain according to the APN attributes. The IOAM is only used in the backbone daomain.
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[19:48:47] <Jari Arkko_web_150> @Shuping: understood. The question is if that clear benefit is enough though. Not saying it isn't but that's a question we need to ask. One could do the 5-tuple lookup every time, if one wanted to.
[19:49:01] <Lou Berger_web_111> @jari - think you're not missing anything
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[19:49:49] <Kireeti Kompella_web_499> @martin duke they are indeed, simply flow labels -- they can be used for all sorts of things
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[19:50:46] <Jen Linkova_web_744> "20 bits ought to be enough for anybody" ;))
[19:50:47] <Tom Hill_web_186> Ah, 4B permutations. OK.
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[19:51:18] <Tom Hill_web_186> I got loads of FIB in my edge devices for that.
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[19:52:31] <Eduard V_web_805> whatever time is reserved for discussion - it would be not enough.
[19:52:46] <Lars Eggert_web_364> @jari one difference between "a 5-tuple lookup at each hop" and adding a packet field at the edge is that you could use a bunch of ML at the edge that analyzes a flow's history, and then encode that in the field so you don't need to ML at each hop. in other words, you can afford to do much more at the edge. there are upsides and downsides to this, as always
[19:52:48] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Ole, @mcr, yes, the APN work only focuses on what we can do within the network.
[19:52:58] <Bob Hinden_web_187> We are 15 minutes ahead at the moment
[19:53:02] <Roland Bless_web_943> So either flow labels are sufficient or SFC: also classify once and then use the NSH that should be expressive enough. Then you need to map your policies to SFPs and that's it? #3 wasn't showing any gap to the use case or I didn't understand.
[19:53:08] <Watson Ladd_web_701> this seems way to generic to actually work across devices of very different capabilities
[19:54:19] <Rick Taylor_web_700> I keep thinking abusing LISP may yield the same results...  if the APN becomes encoded in your Identifier at the edges...
[19:54:24] <Jari Arkko_web_150> @lars good point!
[19:54:24] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @Lars There appears to be a fundamental assumption in this that the edge operator takes all available information (including the five tuple) and assigns an APN structured ID.  This means that the ID carries a piece of information that is potentially semantically *richer* than the five tuple and making that available to path elements that would not otherwise have that data.  The size of the ID is high enough that the policy could identify emitters or characteristics that would not be available in the current Internet.  As you note, there are major downsides of that, and I am struggling to see how this could work within the advice of 8558.  That's an IAB doc, not IETF consensus, but these path signals don't match the limitations it advises.
[19:54:25] <> I'm not sure how a "user group ID" would be extracted from 5-tuple/etc
at the edge node.  Unless we're equating src IP with user...
[19:54:31] <Lars Eggert_web_364> what happens to a flow if a hop can't meet the apn requirements?
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[19:54:53] <dhruvdhody> @roland - from what i understand is that re-purposing NSH for non-SFC usecase would be a bit of a mess
[19:54:56] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @kaduk the edge has access to physical port as well.
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[19:55:15] <Takuya Miyasaka_web_704> I'm not sure how edge routers can estimate APN ID and parameters ( latency, bandwidth, etc.) just from 5-tuple. Is there any interface or API between application and APN domain controller?
[19:55:17] <Sergey Fomin_web_937> Feels like a false dichotomy: this APN id is presented as something that works with any data plane.. but in reality it is the new dataplane
[19:55:19] <Watson Ladd_web_701> @Ted: but a rich identifier is hard to switch on, which seems to go against some of the envisioned applications
[19:55:45] <Adrian Farrel_web_934> @Ted. In fact even virtual port id. Various APN implications
[19:56:00] <> "can be treated as opaque", not "is opaque"
[19:56:08] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @Watson I have no doubt that you could build those with this rich an identifier.  But it also looks like a privacy footgun in the making.
[19:56:42] <Watson Ladd_web_701> can build yes. Can build faster than 5 tuple extraction or MPLS label popping? dubious
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[19:57:00] <David Black_web_656> If treated as opaque, how does attribute richness interact with opaque lookup?  Is that just opaque lookup based on ID (would make more sense)?
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[19:57:49] <> I'm interpreting "can be treated as opaque" as indicating that a given
device might only need to process a handful of APN values.  Those
specific values do have internal structure that could be interpreted,
but for this particular device it just uses a lookup table for those
fixed values.
[19:57:52] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_252> It seems that there is edge policy that sets up a set if IDs in each packet; then each node is configured with policies that match an extensible set of IDs (in some combination) and make a decision about how to map/lookup the packet to decide on scheduling, policing, etc. This is gloriously flexible and amazingly complex to coordinate between nodes ...
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[19:58:08] <Adrian Farrel_web_934> @David I *think* (but unsure) that you can apply bit masks to the opaque identifier if (and only if) everyone sets the identifier in the same way.
[19:58:08] <> So, such a "treat as opaque" case could not actually use the full
richness of attributes
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[20:01:02] <Adrian Farrel_web_934> @ Gorry Can I use your quote "This is gloriously flexible and amazingly complex to coordinate" ?
[20:01:03] <Rick Taylor_web_700> @lou - +1 on similarities to DetNet
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[20:01:49] <> Adrian: I'm pretty sure that quote was an IETF Contribution ;)
[20:01:52] <Jana Iyengar_web_243> @Ted -- exactly. It seems to me that we're staring at a giant privacy issue in the making here. An arbitrary generic structured field that can be shared across operator domains enables significant sharing of metadata across operators. That concerns me.
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[20:02:22] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_252> @Adrian.. yes - that's where I am, until someone explains this differently
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[20:03:41] <dhruvdhody> @jana - the claim is that the APN information is stripped along with tunnel encapsulation when it leaves the one operator domain (something like IOAM)
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[20:04:26] <Alexander Clemm_web_354> is "treat as opaque" the same here as "treat as optional"?
[20:04:44] <David Black_web_656> @kaduk Sounds like opaque was used solely wrt privacy of info from which APN ID is derived.
[20:04:49] <> David Black: would you mind typing up your understanding of the answer
you got?  I think I missed part of it, unfortunately
[20:05:26] <dhruvdhody> @alex - maybe part of how the policy is enforced
[20:05:30] <Jingrong Xie_web_938> so opaque means something like "RBAC(Role-Based Access Control)"  instead of some known the specific user. some kind of "indirect"
[20:05:31] <Jana Iyengar_web_243> @dhruv: my understanding is that the entire value of these APN tunnels is to communicate information across domains.
[20:05:39] <David Black_web_656> @kaduk What I understood is that "opaque" refers solely to hiding of information used to construct/derive APN ID, thereby affording privacy properties, but APN ID is completely non-opaque to network elements.
[20:05:50] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @Dhruvdhody The current privacy and security doc makes that claim, but it is an operational practice, not a characteristic of the protocol.  For the one operator, multiple domain case, you can't really put it into the protocol mechanics.
[20:05:52] <dhruvdhody> @jana - but within a single operator
[20:05:56] <Watson Ladd_web_701> so what's between the domains
[20:05:59] <Jie Dong_web_767> @Gorry, in your "then each node is configured with policies...", to my understanding APN does not require each transit node to have that policy configured, only the nodes which need to perform APN specific manipulation
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[20:06:16] <> David: thanks!
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[20:06:24] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> is it expected that the APN ID and parameters be "normalized' (standardized) or be defined domain specific
[20:06:27] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> ?
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[20:06:29] <Alexander Clemm_web_354> @dhruv - not sure policy is sufficient here.  If optional, other questions come up like how to know whether or not it is being acted upon by intermediate nodes
[20:06:37] <David Black_web_656> suspect that Greg and Shuping do not have a common understanding of "transit node" term ...
[20:06:38] <Rick Taylor_web_700> ... and Greg just underlines why this is just DetNet
[20:06:38] <Jingrong Xie_web_938> @David Black, I have similar understanding with yours after explaination by Shuping.
[20:06:47] <Jari Arkko_web_150> @dhruvdhody @jana We can look at this in different ways. Can information, if it exists, be used for a bad policy? Yes. Can it be shared with others? Yes. However, modern operator networks don't really have much metadata to share, given progress in encryption. At least in most parts of the world. If we are concerned about metadata, we should be concerned about CDN, Google, etc. user tracking and how that data is shared eg with advertisers. This does not mean that I'm in favour of APN, because I happen to believe we have the plumbing tools for this already available, so no new tech needed.
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[20:07:56] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @Jari the structure of this enable the sharing of information that is not normally available by on-path inspection, because of the priviledged place the marking occurs.  I think that's different from the "not much metadata to share" case.
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[20:08:23] <Alissa Cooper_web_439> What is the mechanism that forces this attribute to be stripped at the network operator's boundary?
[20:08:35] <Jeffrey Haas_web_126> The meta data is a wonderful place to carry a Google FLoC.
[20:08:53] <Zhenbin Li_web_980> @Greg How to process the bw req para is about the solutions. It is open now. There is the possible way to configure the local policy for best effort if there is enough bw for the bw req para. There can be other policies to process your mentioned cases.
[20:08:57] <Bob Hinden_web_187> I think it stripped when the packet is deencapsulated
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[20:09:10] <Jen Linkova_web_744> why am I thinking about lawful intercept..
[20:09:22] <Jeffrey Haas_web_126> s/lawful//
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[20:09:33] <Jana Iyengar_web_243> @Jari -- I strongly disagree. Making that information flow richer (arbitrarily so), allowing arbitrary aggregates of users, and making it possible for this information can be shared across operators IS a pretty big difference from existing mechanisms such as DiffServ.
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[20:09:47] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @Bob Unless decap and re-encap are guaranteed to be in different boxes, then you still have practice, not protocol mechanism.
[20:09:47] <Watson Ladd_web_701> I think many people would disagree with the idea we have a clear program
[20:09:52] <Jen Linkova_web_744> @Jeff: sorry, should have used double-quotes
[20:09:57] <Jingrong Xie_web_938> "APN domain" boundary to ensure this attribute to be stripped I guess @Alissa
[20:10:07] <Sergey Fomin_web_937> @Jana - i don't think they propose to share between operators, though
[20:10:17] <Sergey Fomin_web_937> it can be, but shouldn't
[20:10:20] <Zhenbin Li_web_980> @Alissa The apn attribute is carried along with the tunnel.  When the tunnel is removed, the APN attribute will be removed at the same time.
[20:10:32] <Jana Iyengar_web_243> @Sergey -- see @Ted's point above. That's an operational point, not something the protocol can enforce.
[20:10:34] <Erik Kline_web_730> similar to SRH mechanics then?
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[20:10:46] <Watson Ladd_web_701> so the tunnel goes across the domains? Why doesn't that allow all the mechanisms we already have like detnet, etc. to work?
[20:11:07] <Jeffrey Haas_web_126> I think the idea that they can remove the privacy implications of these mechanisms by charter is ludicrous.
[20:11:10] <Lou Berger_web_111> for those who may be  interested - DetNet session is 30 minutes after this session ends - see and
[20:11:11] <Rick Taylor_web_700> @Watson:  this is just DetNet - but the "attribute" is "policy-compliance" rather than latency or reliability.
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[20:11:47] <> There is the question of who decides whether there is violation of the
user's privacy/security, yes.  I can imagine some people whose
decisions would essentially not let anything be published
[20:11:52] <Alissa Cooper_web_439> I guess I was wondering about the case when the interconnecting network says, "hey, I'll pay you to leave that attribute there after decap"
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[20:12:06] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> @Lou: so if a user wants to get DetNet service for a flow, the user and network need to le to know network know 5 tuple flow. Is that a violation of user privacy ?
[20:12:16] <Watson Ladd_web_701> @Rick +1, think this should happen there
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[20:12:44] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @Alissa it's even simpler; let me do the decap on my side of the peering point.
[20:12:48] <Rick Taylor_web_700> @Watson - It has already happened...  there's even YANG models, and we all know they get done last
[20:12:58] <Boris Khasanov_web_716> What's the point for using GTP-U there?
[20:12:59] <Zhenbin Li_web_980> @Watson the detnet is the network service to be policy-enforced. It can be done according to the APN atttribute carried in the tunnel.
[20:13:00] <Lou Berger_web_111> @toreless the stated scope was single provider, so they already have the info
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[20:13:09] <Watson Ladd_web_701> why can't detnet carry the info?
[20:13:19] <Rick Taylor_web_700> It can
[20:13:29] <Watson Ladd_web_701> why do we need an abstract container for service info across all tunneling mechanisms?
[20:13:32] <Justin Iurman_web_849> ... why can't IOAM carry the info?
[20:13:36] <> Does DetNet-IP have ways to convey information other than 6-tuple?
[20:13:37] <Lou Berger_web_111> @watson, was about to say that's an option too
[20:13:46] <Sergey Fomin_web_937> @Watson that's a great question
[20:14:02] <Lou Berger_web_111> we have an mpls  service label already and have a proposal for a service IP label
[20:14:03] <> I think I remember DetNet-MPLS having more flexibility than DetNet-IP
[20:14:09] <David Black_web_656> "will not publish anything that violates user's privacy and security" seems to be both untestable and miss the point - "that can be used to violate ..." is where the problems reside ... and looks like I'm not the only person thinking along these lines - +1 @Jeff & @kaduk
[20:14:10] <Sergey Fomin_web_937> Don't see a need to define a new dataplane to carry this info, while you could use existing mechanisms
[20:14:12] <Watson Ladd_web_701> when open mic starts i;ll ask it
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[20:14:43] <Dan Voyer_web_901> @watson that's what coming next
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[20:15:39] <Dino Farinacci_web_513> the question is not being answered, what is the OUTER HEADER?
[20:15:40] <Tom Hill_web_186> @david We're all quite well aware of the power (danger) of metadata.
[20:15:48] <Tom Hill_web_186> No different here tbh
[20:15:49] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> @lou: thanks
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[20:16:26] <> Lou: do you have a link to the service IP label draft handy?
[20:16:42] <Tom Hill_web_186> Basically taking a bunch of factors and giving every user an identification number in the core.
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[20:17:12] <Kireeti Kompella_web_782> "talked out" at a BoF???
[20:17:25] <Lou Berger_web_111> sure there are two: and
[20:17:28] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Tarek, that is true. APN and network slicing do not conflict each other.
[20:17:34] <> Thanks Lou!
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[20:17:52] <Lou Berger_web_111> NP - they are both individual so still working this part out
[20:17:53] <David Black_web_656> @Tom - if that's done, "opaque" != "private"
[20:18:07] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> my big concern is an "APN setter" can DoS the network
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[20:18:48] <Jim Guichard_web_804> i dont think they mean opaque in this sense
[20:18:49] <Jari Arkko_web_150> @Ted we may agree actually on the conclusion on what we should be doing in the IETF on this. So I'm not sure I want to argue too much with you. But I am not sure the point about privileged place. In many networks -- mobile networks in particular -- you already carry a lot of information about ingress "ports" for instance, as there is a technical reason for tunneling and that involves some identification of the connection. Lars' point is valid that one could set up an AI thing, but that sees more about the need to have enough resources at a stable node to do that if one really needs to. That could be somewhere else than in the edge. In fact in mobile placing it in edge might be a bad idea. But Lars is right that if one does that, then attributes would be a way to distribute the information further. Although maybe not in order that the APN diagrams show it. You'd have. to deliver it in reverse order, if the analysis point was in centralized cloud facility, for instance.
[20:18:55] <Lou Berger_web_111> @dino its really the same issue as interdomain mpls
[20:18:56] <Jingrong Xie_web_938> OUTER HEADER is the header prepended to the original packet during encapsulation I guess @Dino
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[20:19:31] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> agree @lou, but since mistakes of the past are repeated, that's the definition of insanity
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[20:19:51] <Lou Berger_web_111> ;-)
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[20:20:22] <Rick Taylor_web_700> I'm still not sure what the problem domain is...  What is the problem APN is trying to solve?
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[20:20:37] <Ted Hardie_web_575> put a link to the slide here instead of reading it aloud?
[20:20:55] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> the problem statement is simply this "what can an app do to get better service for it, from the network"
[20:21:06] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @frodek, APN domain is Application-ware Network domain :)
[20:21:06] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> and of course all apps want the best service, so what gives?
[20:21:20] <Sergey Fomin_web_937> @Dino an app does not participate in this, per my understanding
[20:21:27] <Rick Taylor_web_700> Aaah.. "How can an app get a determinsitic service from the network" ?
[20:21:33] <Lou Berger_web_111> @chairs how does this listing of slicing related to APN???
[20:21:35] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> what would Sally Floyd say about this?
[20:21:39] <Jana Iyengar_web_243> About privacy -- an arbitrary structure that can be (i) defined by an operator at runtime, and (ii) shared arbitrarily makes this particularly problematic. This is literally a mechanism for creating and sharing arbitrary metadata about arbitrary aggregates across arbitrary boundaries. That solves many problems, sure, but it creates as much or more room for trouble.
If there are specific problems that we want to solve, let's consider them individually and try to solve them. If general themes arise, let's see if we can generalize to cover the use cases. Arguing for a completely general mechanism based on two use cases is an academic exercise, not an engineering one.
[20:21:43] <> An optimist might say that different apps care about "best" on
different axes (bandwidth, latency)
[20:21:46] <Watson Ladd_web_701> i don't think that's the problem. much simpler solutions. And some apps deliberately deprivilege flows: bittorent choking and scavenger tcp controllers
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[20:22:27] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> @kaduk, then we have a multi-dimensiona "what gives"
[20:22:39] <Jim Guichard_web_804> this is not network slicing
[20:22:56] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_108> @Jana, Funny how you describe Flow label
[20:23:01] <dhruvdhody> Creating a network slice for the APN usecase for policy enforcement seems extreme
[20:24:15] <Jie Dong_web_767> in my understanding APN and network slice are concept at different layers/granularity
[20:24:19] <John Scudder_web_873> @Jim it's too bad Jeffrey's slide didn't project, because it would be interesting to hear your specific rebuttal of his specific points.
[20:24:52] <> Hopefully Jeffrey could still put a link to his slide in the chat?
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[20:25:43] <Jim Guichard_web_804> @John Scudder i guess it will go on the mailing list but the main point is that APN *could* be used to forward a traffic into a specific network slice but i would doubt having a slice per APN given that the permutations could be very large
[20:25:58] <John Scudder_web_873> I took his point broadly speaking to be that if one focuses on the definition of network slicing and ignores the marketing name, the definition matches. Which if true, is a good thing, that's what you want out of a well thought-out architecture. "If the shoe fits, wear it."
[20:26:15] <Joel Halpern_web_736> @Jim Guichard - I hope this is not network slicing.  However, it is hard to distinguish the two apparently different meanings of assigning behavior to subsets of traffic.  The IETF network slicing work has been focusing on making sure that the result is aggregatable and scalable.   So it seems to be tackling the harder problems.  Beyond that, we have plenty of tools.
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[20:27:17] <Dirk Hugo_web_120> is the gap that existing approaches only provide limited granularity but APN an unlimited one?
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[20:27:32] <Zhaohui Zhang_web_834> Here are the text from the slide that I tried to share:
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[20:29:15] <> Right, we have no protocol mechanism to enforce what's in the APN
marking and when it's removed, which I think relates to a question
Joey had asked near the start of the session.
[20:29:27] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> I really agree with Ted
[20:29:29] <Zhaohui Zhang_web_834> Ongoing IETF Network Slicing work already addresses the problem domain and solution
- An IETF Network Slice provides the required connectivity between different entities in RAN and CN segments of an end-to-end network slice, with a specific performance commitment.
- It is intended that IETF Network Slices can be created to meet specific requirements, typically expressed as bandwidth, latency, latency variation, and other desired or required characteristics.
- An IETF Network Slice combines the connectivity resource requirements and associated network behaviors such as bandwidth, latency, jitter, and network functions with other resource behaviors such as compute and storage availability.
- Term "Slice" refers to a set of characteristics and behaviors that separate one type of user-traffic from another.  IETF Network Slice assumes that an underlying network is capable of ... fulfilling all or some of SLOs to all of the traffic in the slice or to specific flows
- Many approaches are currently being worked on to support IETF Network Slices in IP and MPLS networks with or without the use of Segment Routing.  Most of these approaches utilize a way of marking packets so that network nodes can apply specific routing and forwarding behaviors to packets that belong to different IETF Network Slices. Different mechanisms for marking packets have been proposed (including using MPLS labels and Segment Rouing segment IDs)
- The realization can be achieved in a form of either physical or logical connectivity using VPNs, virtual networks (VNs), or a variety of tunneling technologies such as Segment Routing, MPLS, etc.
- Slice Aggregate concept (similar to DiffServ Behavior Aggregate) in draft-bestbar is about identifying some or all traffic in a slice using opaque numbers and providing corresponding forwarding treatment
[20:29:50] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Jen, that is because the 5 tuples of the original packet have encapsulated within the tunnel. If people want to do the policy enforcement again within the network domain, they will have to resolve the 5 tuples.
[20:29:57] <Zhaohui Zhang_web_834> The bullets are quotes from the IETF Network Slice framework
[20:30:08] <Watson Ladd_web_701> so it's just pulling the 5 tuple to the front?
[20:30:51] <Lou Berger_web_111> @zhaohui -- thanks for clarifying, it wasn't clear to me why you were reading this definition
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[20:31:49] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> right, and leave some packet bits for the app ;-)
[20:31:55] <Rüdiger Volk_web_461> is slicing more general because addressing MULTI operator scenarios?
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[20:32:15] <Jari Arkko_web_150> +1 on Watson's argument about picking an existing tunneling layer
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[20:32:47] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> +2
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[20:33:16] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Waston, we are not creating new tunnels, we are using the exisitng tunnel to carry the APN attribute, to that, we would need some extensions and new specifications.
[20:33:33] <Watson Ladd_web_701> but why not extend existing tunnel across your entire network?
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[20:33:59] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> putting the solution in the overlay alone doesn't solve the problem, the underlay needs to support it too
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[20:34:22] <Watson Ladd_web_701> from the first slide you've got one entity controlling different incompatible pieces with different tunneling mechanisms. just pick one: you've got to change everything anyway
[20:34:24] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_108> With properly anonymized packets, APN could in teh end represent less metadata than want an encapsulated packet sent on a mobiel network would leak
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[20:34:38] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> tell me why copying outer TOS to inner TOS and using existing equipment is not enough?
[20:34:51] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> I mean inner to outer on encap
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[20:35:28] <Sergey Fomin_web_937> @Shuping is that just an attribute, though? or a new encapsulation which should be processed in fastpath on each hop?
[20:35:33] <Sergey Fomin_web_937> feels like the latter.
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[20:36:44] <Roland Bless_web_943> I didn't find the gap analysis convincing. IMHO there are plenty of solutions available to do this.
[20:36:57] <Lou Berger_web_111> +1
[20:37:05] <Watson Ladd_web_701> +1
[20:37:07] <Sergey Fomin_web_937> Agree with Roland.
[20:37:20] <Tarek Saad_web_966> @ Roland +1
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[20:37:53] <Joel Halpern_web_736> @roland +1
[20:37:56] <Tarek Saad_web_966> though Gyan started on it (thanks) - but was not exhaustive
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[20:38:13] <David Black_web_656> @Shuping - suggest starting by picking one encapsulation to carry APN, focus on that and ensure that APN solves a problem that the existing encapsulation does not.  The assertion that the APN must be encapsulation-independent is poorly supported by what I've seen.
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[20:38:29] <Kireeti Kompella_web_782> @roland +1 @tarek +1
[20:38:32] <Nicolas Kuhn_web_898> I think inter-domain relies on protocols inter-operability that is dealt with a protocol-per-protocol basis ; not sure a specific WG is necessary to do so. this needs to be discussed in specific and existing WG
[20:38:35] <Luis Contreras_web_441> I see some contradiction between the positions that "this can be done with other existing capabilities" with the argument of "this is potntially problematic". If the first argument apply, then the second does not (or at least the risk is already there).
[20:38:57] <Srihari Sangli_web_797> @roland + 1
[20:39:00] <Roland Bless_web_943> The other thing I find a bit odd: 5 tuple is considered to be complex, but processing the attribute parameters on bandwidth, delay, jitter requirements etc. not? I mean I understood, that the latter is probably only required for some attributes, but nevertheless...
[20:39:07] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_108> @Luis +1
[20:39:11] <Watson Ladd_web_701> @Luis: it's "the claimed application can be done with existing technology" and "the generality is dangerous"
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[20:39:24] <Watson Ladd_web_701> @Roland+1
[20:39:25] <Dan Voyer_web_901> @Dino, how about you come to the mic with your views ? :)
[20:39:29] <Kazuaki Ueda_web_615> @Roland+1
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[20:39:42] <Uma Chunduri_web_827> @Luis +1
[20:39:54] <John Scudder_web_873> @Roland thanks for saying that
[20:40:01] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_108> @Watson if privacy is a concern, I encourage you to look at the academic litterature on AI uses for Traffic classification
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[20:40:21] <Jim Guichard_web_804> @chairs maybe let folks talk that have not already been to the mic multiple times?
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[20:40:37] <Dan Voyer_web_901> yes
[20:40:38] <Alissa Cooper_web_439> @Luis, as Jana said, the threat model for a generic attribute is different than for a narrowly scoped attribute specific to a particular tunneling mechanism
[20:40:38] <Kireeti Kompella_web_782> @dan bernier: change APN to API?
[20:40:53] <Uma Chunduri_web_827> @proponents - Slicing solutions and it's overlap should be addressed in the gaps
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[20:41:27] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> @kireeti did not want to go to "intent". but API  oh yes
[20:41:31] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> :D
[20:41:33] <Jen Linkova_web_744> Luis: (re your "existing mechanism vs risk arguments) - we might have  mechanisms to solve the proposed use cases. New mechanism might have *additional* security/privacy implications which existing mechanisms don't (or have but not to that degree).
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[20:42:12] <Uma Chunduri_web_827> @proponents is the structure for APN-ID (if there) has to be defined and standardized case by case? or it's generic 16/32/8 bit metdata
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[20:42:29] <Watson Ladd_web_701> +1 Ron: avoid making desert wax and floor topping
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[20:42:55] <Kireeti Kompella_web_782> @dan API = application intent?
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[20:43:14] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> yup !
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[20:44:29] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> a network domain might decide to convey it by any means available
[20:44:41] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> or not if the intent is ludicrous
[20:44:43] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Jari, thank you for your suggestions!
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[20:45:38] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Uma, thank you. That is up to the working group to decide the proper design.
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[20:47:29] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> the trick is how an app developper can know what capabilities are available from a given  network (sdk ?)
[20:47:48] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Ron, the use cases presented here are intended to be kept simple, clear and strightforward so people could get the point immediately within the 10mintues presentation. But since ietf108 we have presented so many times on the use cases and usage scenarios and no need to repeat here and we already drafts
[20:48:25] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> that's why we only have TOS bits to play with Erik
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[20:48:58] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> and TOS has an advanage, you only have 8 bits of combinations, a feaure, less profiles better
[20:49:24] <Boris Khasanov_web_716> @Daniel - very important question! Agree that APN should think about it too.
[20:49:36] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Dirk, we are not creating new domains. We are building upon the existing networks.
[20:50:04] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> who you are? That can't be good
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[20:50:43] <Shuping Peng_web_302> @Daniel Bernier, APN is only about the network
[20:51:04] <cabo> Dino: Many people confuse "who am I" with "what are my attributes"
[20:51:06] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> no its not, IMO, its about the packets anyone or anything could send
[20:51:07] <Kireeti Kompella_web_782> if you weren't scared before, jim's made a case for really being scared
[20:51:14] <cabo> That is even our definition of identity
[20:51:17] <Watson Ladd_web_701> APN is about the network doing what? feel like we've had the same conversation after 110
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[20:51:44] <Jim Guichard_web_804> @kireeti i am scary, terribly so ;-)
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[20:51:59] <Watson Ladd_web_701> if there isn't a succinct usecase that doesn't fit existing work, the case for doing it sounds week to me?
[20:52:00] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> right, @cabo
[20:52:02] <cabo> 32 bits is not enough to tell who you are, need 1 or 2 more bits
[20:52:24] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> well a hash(jimG) could fit in 32-bits
[20:52:29] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> but just don't do it
[20:52:52] <Zhenbin Li_web_980> @Ted regarding your issues, though the entry/exit points is flexible, the APN attribute must be carried along with tunnel in the domain. Then the APN attribute will be removed along with the tunnel.
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[20:52:57] <Jim Guichard_web_804> @kireeti maybe identify is a better way to put it so identity to attribute mapping to be used to identify which policy to enforce
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[20:53:11] <cabo> But it is nearly irrelevant for a router, no?  What the application *is* (not wants) is of interest — API (intent) indeed
[20:53:19] <Zongpeng Du_web_361> IMO, APN is a kind of network programming mechanism,and it increases the network intelligence capability. It should be helpful to the operator, and hope it to be flexible.
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[20:53:58] <Kireeti Kompella_web_782> @jim, post mapping, sure. but identity itself? and location, what they are doing, ...? that gets truly scary
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[20:54:39] <Dirk Hugo_web_120> @Toerless: DIUYC that machines need no privacy? They are very often strongly related to humans IMO
[20:54:49] <Ted Hardie_web_575> @Toerless the fact it came from a device and not a human does not eliminate privacy concerns, it changes them.  Consider the privacy characteristics of a set of CO2 sensors--within the application they demonstrate which rooms are occupied and can tell you whether a specific dwelling has people home or not.  That still has privacy implications, even though not emitted by a human.  That's a very simple example, but hopefully you can extrapolate to other applications from there.
[20:55:10] <> What different treatment will the network give my traffic if I'm in
finance vs. marketing?
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[20:55:22] <Jim Guichard_web_804> @kireeti sure but locality is interesting and perhaps what you are doing in terms of which application (not what your doing in the application)
[20:55:31] <Dino Farinacci_web_876> but how do you scale for "granular treatment" for 1000 flows on the other side of that leased line?
[20:55:34] <Lou Berger_web_111> @tes +1
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[20:58:00] <Tony Przygienda_web_515> Classify on the edge map on whatever tunnel flavor rocks your boat all done last 2nr seemed like grappling for some nebulous usecase and since it’s not apparently visible it seems general solution for the unknown case is summoned :grinning:
[20:58:23] <Dan Voyer_web_901> your question seems to also be a question for slicing
[20:58:33] <Shuping Peng_web_302> APN does not conflict with the existing solutions on the fine granular network services such as network slicing and detnet. APN is a way to express the services for the operators to better perform service provisioning, which is for sure based on customer's consent.
[20:58:44] <Watson Ladd_web_701> why does the operator need that?
[20:58:52] <Watson Ladd_web_701> they already deploy slicing to deliver the service
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[20:59:00] <Watson Ladd_web_701> or MPLS to deliver the service
[20:59:02] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> @ted; i didn't say all m2m has no privacy concerns, bit significant and important cases do not
[20:59:27] <Kireeti Kompella_web_782> the gap is in understanding what's there today
[20:59:33] <Shuping Peng_web_302> this use cases presentation has shown some benefits
[20:59:52] <Kireeti Kompella_web_782> benefits that are delivered by network slicing
[21:00:11] <Zongpeng Du_web_361> we do not think it is conflicted between Network slicing and APN
[21:00:27] <Kireeti Kompella_web_782> great! that's a good place to start
[21:00:51] <Toerless Eckert_web_192> @ted: btw: still interested to better understand your iabopen comment ;-)
[21:00:59] <Lou Berger_web_111> what does the apn architecture add that isn't in existing IETF architectures and solutions
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[21:01:25] <> Huge thanks to the chairs for organizing/running the session and
providing the summary at the end!
[21:01:33] <Joey Salazar_web_755> +1 Martin, a draft is needed to clarify the points we've been going in circles for a while
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[21:01:58] <Dirk Hugo_web_120> kusto to minute takers!
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[21:02:05] <Joey Salazar_web_755> thank you all
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[21:02:06] <Daniel Bernier_web_884> great job chairs
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[21:02:08] <Lou Berger_web_111> thanks all!
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[21:02:21] <dhruvdhody> Leave the room :)
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[21:02:25] <cabo> Meetecho: done
[21:02:25] <Cedric Westphal_web_342> thanks all!
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[21:02:35] <Boris Khasanov_web_716> thanks
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[21:02:46] <Olaf Kolkman_web_932> Thanks
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