IETF
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Thursday, March 24, 2022< ^ >
Meetecho has set the subject to: IETF 112 - ADD
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[13:22:52] Meetecho has set the subject to: IETF 113 - ADD
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[13:25:14] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> meetecho: can you set title to DPRIVE-ADD ?
[13:25:23] <Meetecho> Sure
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[13:25:39] Meetecho has set the subject to: DPRIVE-ADD (IETF 113)
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[13:32:02] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> Is Benno's voice OK on remote ?
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[13:32:13] <Joey Salazar_web_408> it is
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[13:32:26] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> thanks
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[13:32:43] <Glenn Deen_web_592> is there a reason most of the in room local people are one side of the room?
[13:33:33] <Chris Box_web_843> I can move if it makes you feel better Glenn
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[13:33:52] <Andrew Campling_web_263> @Gllenn totally random
[13:33:56] <Tim Wicinski_web_844> Minutes kept at https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-113-add?edit
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[13:42:05] <Peter van Dijk_web_329> there are some high-value authoritatives with 853 out there already - like for facebook.com
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[13:42:17] <Glenn Deen_web_592> @Chris - just wanted to keep it visually balanced for the recording.
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[13:43:49] <Jim Reid_web_845> If someone tilts the camera, people might shift to the other side of the room Glenn.
[13:44:58] <Ted Hardie_web_381> I'm always a bit squicked by MUST NOTs like this in 3.3; "such a server MUST NOT serve resource records that differ based on SNI (or on the lack of SNI) provided by the client,".  Is there any reasonable way for the client to tell this?  Or is this  a "don't do this, but we know you will"?
[13:45:17] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> @Jim: prefix your wish with meetecho ;-)
[13:45:18] <Christopher Inacio_web_272> @dkg - are you using the issues in gitlab to track issues?
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[13:45:34] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_995> Ted: Varying server behavior based on SNI is not trivial to implement, so it's unlikely to happen by accident.
[13:45:56] <Ted Hardie_web_381> @Benjamin Schwartz I agree that it is not likely to be an accident.
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[13:46:07] <Joey Salazar_web_408> @Christopher Inacio yes we are
[13:46:25] <Joey Salazar_web_408> https://gitlab.com/dkg/dprive-unilateral-probing
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[13:46:52] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_995> Ted: It may not be detectable by the client (i.e. resolver), but it will break resolution so it will be detectable by the zone's helpdesk.
[13:47:01] <dkg> fully agreed with mapping mailing list issues to the issue tracker
[13:47:03] <Christopher Inacio_web_272> @joey thanks - looking at it now, just comparing against the fixme's
[13:47:09] <Joey Salazar_web_408> we encourage ml reviews that include/summarize the created gitlab issues
[13:47:21] <Christopher Inacio_web_272> @joey, dkg - ack
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[13:51:40] <Peter van Dijk_web_329> +1 to dkg's answers here
[13:52:43] <Christian Huitema_web_141> The bar should be, "as good or better than DNS cookies". I think it is met.
[13:53:03] <Jim Reid_web_845> +1 Christian
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[13:57:59] <Brian Haberman_web_752> @ekr May be worth creating two issues so we can track them in the WG discussion of the draft.
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[14:00:35] <ekr@jabber.org> It's worth noting that as bemasc points out, self-signed certs are very slightly a move towards the direction of DANE
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[14:01:43] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_995> ekr: I do think that's pretty slight.  For anyone who wants to use WebPKI, there's no barrier in this draft.
[14:01:55] <ekr@jabber.org> @bemasc: yes, I agree with that as well.
[14:02:09] <Christian Huitema_web_141> In practice, the easy alternative are let's encrypt and self signed. LE is probably slightly easier, so I predict it will see deployment
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[14:02:19] <Wes Hardaker_web_353> grumpy view ha ha: there have definitely been documents in the IETF that were designed to get in the way of future things :-/
[14:02:47] <Peter van Dijk_web_329> I have a non-exhaustive list, even ;)
[14:03:34] <Christian Huitema_web_141> Unilateral subsumes "unauthenticated".
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[14:03:51] <Chris Box_web_843> Paul's "let's use obviously wrong self-signed certs" makes sense to me. For example CN = i-am-an-authoritative-DNS-server
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[14:05:23] <Christian Huitema_web_141> You could do that. Or you could host a tiny web server for the purpose of making let's Encrypt work, use the resulting cert in DoQ/DoT, and see it work with most TLS stacks...
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[14:06:00] <Kevin Fleming_web_122> i use LE certs without any web server at all (using the DNS challenge method, although that could be a chicken-and-egg issue here)
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[14:06:44] <Christian Huitema_web_141> It absolutely has a chicken-and-egg issue. That's what should drive the further work, eventually.
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[14:07:49] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> @Paul I agree for intended status, let's explore how can be done w/o too many efforts
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[14:10:43] <Tim Wicinski_web_844> Thanks all for working with us
[14:10:46] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> Thank you Brian & Tim !
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[14:14:39] <Tommy Pauly_web_893> If only this was the first session to get up for...
[14:14:47] <Wes Hardaker_web_353> then why did I get up at 01:30?
[14:14:56] <Glenn Deen_web_592> ----- ADD Session from here -----
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[14:15:28] <Tommy Pauly_web_893> I'm just being silly =) lack of sleep
[14:15:29] <dkg> DPRIVE holdover: i just opened https://gitlab.com/dkg/dprive-unilateral-probing/-/issues/11 to record suggestions about draft framing that came up in the meeting just now
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[14:16:28] <dkg> sorry for the delay in the slide upload
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[14:17:14] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> "You can see the sun?" -- live from Redmond
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[14:18:00] <dkg> David, there are 111 people here.  please don't leave newcomers in the dark.
[14:18:02] <David Lawrence_web_612> Mixed precip here in Vermont on top of the worst mud season we've had in years and years.
[14:18:26] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> :-(
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[14:18:43] <dkg> saying "everyone already knows me" can make a newcomer feel unwelcome and left out, and it doesn't hurt to just do a reintroduction even if everyone does already know you.
[14:18:51] <David Lawrence_web_612> Apologies, I didn't mean to sounds as flippant there as I ended up sounding.   You're right, dkg, I should be mindful that there are always new people coming in.  We hope.
[14:19:02] <dkg> that's the goal :)
[14:19:16] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> Thanks for the 2 notes indeed
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[14:19:42] <David Lawrence_web_612> So for anyone who is new and wants to know more about me (or Glenn), please feel free to say hi and I'll be happy to talk.
[14:19:58] <ekr@jabber.org> What if I'm not new and wants to know more about you
[14:19:59] <David Lawrence_web_612> (Tired here.  Long week of getting up at 4am for IETF.)
[14:20:23] <Andrew Campling_web_263> @Dave, dkg: based on co-hosting the newcomers’ breakfast this morning, there are indeed newcomers so being mindful of them is much appreciated
[14:20:29] <David Lawrence_web_612> I'll be happy to talk with you too, ekr. :)
[14:20:54] <Kevin Fleming_web_122> the initialisms for the work in this group are most excellent and have so many meanings :-)
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[14:21:19] <David Lawrence_web_612> DDR *always* makes me think of Dance Dance Revolution.
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[14:21:25] <Kevin Fleming_web_122> yes
[14:21:46] <David Lawrence_web_612> and DNR has some sad medical overtones
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[14:22:13] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> My coworkers remind me DDR has other meaning in the context of Europe, but I too think of the game.
[14:22:50] <Eric Orth_web_401> Didn't the DDR slides at the last IETF have a bunch of Dance Dance Revolution imagery?
[14:23:02] <Andrew Campling_web_263> @meetecho comments from the in-room mic into the room seem pretty quiet
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[14:23:45] <Meetecho> Andrew: do you mean quiet for local participants, or remote?
[14:24:06] <Meetecho> And just that mic, or all of them?
[14:24:31] <Andrew Campling_web_263> @meetecho quiet for local participants
[14:24:45] <Chris Box_web_843> Chair mike sounds quiet to me in the room too
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[14:25:11] <Andrew Campling_web_263> +1 to the chair mike too
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[14:26:21] <Vicky Risk_web_427> I can see the agenda deck above the rest of the slides. The agenda is also in the note taking pad
[14:27:10] <Meetecho> Since we're using the ADD working group for the room, we only pull materials from there
[14:27:23] <Meetecho> So the DPRIVE slides won't be available in the slide share feature
[14:27:55] <Meetecho> From settings / manage slides, though, you can also upload PDF files manually
[14:29:00] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_995> Wow
[14:29:07] <Eric Orth_web_401> My eyes hurt.
[14:29:22] <Andrew Campling_web_263> A new encoding option?
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[14:29:38] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> DNS over Cuneiform
[14:29:40] <Christian Huitema_web_141> The new ComicSans!
[14:29:45] <Vicky Risk_web_427> readable https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-add-i-noticed-these-arent-posted-yet-split-horizon-dns-configuration/
[14:29:51] <David Lawrence_web_612> Cuneiform
[14:30:09] <Erik Nygren_web_244> Or some alien font.  Split event horizon.
[14:30:09] <David Lawrence_web_612> Oops, Tommy beat me to it
[14:30:40] <Chris Box_web_843> Thanks Vicky. And I like "Verified Split Horizon" as a title.
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[14:31:23] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> Dave I'm grateful you confirmed my spelling which I did not check
[14:32:06] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> (I like the scope clarification, thanks for the updates Dan)
[14:33:31] <Chris Box_web_843> Ben's title also works, and has the benefit of being more precise, but I wonder whether keeping "split horizon" in the title will help people find it?
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[14:35:11] <dkg> does anyone else hear helicopters whenever Dan Wing talks?
[14:35:20] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_995> It was better before
[14:35:30] <Andrew Campling_web_263> Definitely some background crackle
[14:35:42] <dkg> better helicopters or better non-helicopters?
[14:36:20] <David Lawrence_web_612> Just crackle distortion, no choppers
[14:36:39] <Kevin Fleming_web_122> @dkg: i was hearing the same distortion during the DPRIVE session, but then it went away
[14:37:44] <Vicky Risk_web_427> +1 'split' or 'split horizon' is helpful in the name
[14:39:31] <Wes Hardaker_web_353> it might be helpful for Dan to mute and then unmute -- that can fix problems like that.
[14:39:35] <Wes Hardaker_web_353> (sometimes)
[14:39:57] <Andrew Campling_web_263> +1 on keeping a reference to split in the title
[14:41:26] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> ++
[14:41:49] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_995> ekr: The internal one can probably just act as a recursive resolver for all the public names
[14:42:43] <David Lawrence_web_612> split-horizon probably helps best for SEO-type issues, as Chris suggested
[14:42:44] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> typing noisein the background...
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[14:42:54] <Chris Box_web_843> Perhaps Dan?
[14:42:56] <Tommy Pauly_web_893> @dan is that you typing?
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[14:43:51] <Glenn Deen_web_799> is chair audio still low for those in the room?
[14:44:25] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> Your audio is fine Glenn
[14:44:33] <Chris Box_web_843> Your audio was never a problem, it was audio from the mics in the room; and no-one has spoken into those recently
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[14:47:14] <dkg> are there any other PvD attributes that claim some sort of exclusive access?
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[14:48:09] <Tommy Pauly_web_893> No, there aren't any existing ones
[14:48:25] <dkg> that makes it very odd semantically
[14:49:06] <Eric Orth_web_401> +1 to Tommy's point.  I think most non-network-managed clients are going to ignore any similar flags unless they run into adversarial interference so good to make things more explicitly around that.
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[14:50:01] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> +1 as well, describing network behavior seems to be more productive than prescribing client behavior and in line with previous discussions near this point.
[14:50:18] <dkg> +1 as well
[14:50:25] <Christian Huitema_web_141> +1
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[14:51:48] <Christian Huitema_web_141> Basic problem is the network does control the Wi-Fi network, does not control cellular connection. The device in theory could always run DNS over cellular, and unless the devic eis fully controlled there is no way to block that.
[14:52:39] <dkg> and you cannot know that, as the network operator
[14:53:11] <dkg> it's pretty hard to not characterize this as "when i block the user from using the network as they choose, they get confused and frustrated"
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[14:53:37] <Christian Huitema_web_141> :-)
[14:54:26] <Christian Huitema_web_141> Should we have an IETF position on not endorsing perimeter based security?
[14:54:38] <dkg> "the user is willing to agree" is a tough interpretaton of the usual UI/UX modal interruption
[14:55:01] <dkg> most users see such an interruption as "to get your work done, blah blah blah [OK] [cancel]"
[14:55:33] <Peter Hessler_web_711> aka, the ssl warning click-through
[14:56:05] <dkg> among many others
[14:56:15] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> @christian: that would be lovely
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[14:56:47] <Christian Huitema_web_141> Perimeter security belongs to the old "inadequate but marketable" legacy...
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[14:58:21] <Andrew Campling_web_263> @Christian I image malware developers would welcome such a move, ditto surveillance capitalists and others
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[14:59:47] <Christian Huitema_web_141> @andrew look at zero trust for the actual security response. Or at various ransomware attacks for the inadequacy of perimeter security.
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[15:01:13] <Chris Box_web_843> In the spirit of bind.version, perhaps we should add to RESINFO response a list of CVEs to which this resolver is currently vulnerable. :-)
[15:01:23] <Andrew Campling_web_263> @Christian: not suggesting using it in isolation
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[15:02:44] <Brett Carr_web_252> I've not read this draft (disclosure), but instead of a new record could we use HINFO (Shows my age)
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[15:03:34] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> @chris if it claims vulnerability to a CVE that it was already patched for, is that legally misleading the user?
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[15:04:25] <Chris Box_web_843> Sounds like a honeypot
[15:04:28] <Tommy Pauly_web_893> I don't see us using this info in the UI
[15:04:44] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> Neither does the other Tommy
[15:05:01] <dkg> the binding ekr is talking about needs to go in the opposite direction
[15:05:10] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_995> I really think about this as just for debugging.  That might point toward it being less machine-readable.
[15:05:31] <Eric Orth_web_401> I can't think of any use for this directly in Chrome.  All I can come up with is that it might be useful for manually debugging/querying.
[15:05:52] <Jim Reid_web_261> @ Brett, is HINFO still a thing?
[15:05:56] <Brett Carr_web_252> efforts to increase ease of dns debugging are very much a good idea :)
[15:06:24] <dkg> +1 for debugging info
[15:06:33] <ekr@jabber.org> @dkg: yeah, what I'm saying is that I join the network, it says "go over here to find my policies". What we would need is if the client shows that information it needs to validate that the person asserting the policies asserts that this server is its own
[15:07:00] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> +1 to ekr, now there's a whole new chain of trust to build.
[15:07:13] <dkg> and another round trip, probably
[15:07:36] <Brett Carr_web_252> @Jim still exists as a record type AFAIK but is never used hence my suggestion of re-using ut instead of inventing a new one
[15:08:28] <dkg> Brett Carr: does "never used" mean never published or never queried?
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[15:10:16] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> I should read the I-D but is it relevant for IPv6 only  network ?
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[15:11:03] <Eric Orth_web_401> I have expressed support for adoption of this before, and I still support it.  I don't have much else to say.
[15:11:32] <Jim Reid_web_261> The RESINFO's JSON goop will likely be much richer than anything HINFO can do.
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[15:14:29] <Erik Nygren_web_244> @Éric: I worry that DDR is a big problem for IPv6-only networks with forwarders.  I think we may need a solution there.  For example, if we adopt this draft should it also apply to resolvers on the same (/64?) as the client.
[15:14:54] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> @Erik good Q indeed
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[15:16:22] <Peter Hessler_web_711> @Erik anecdotal data, but my ISP gives me an IPv6 resolver that happens to have the same IP address as the gateway; so that would be helpful in this case
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[15:19:26] <Erik Nygren_web_244> @Peter: is that a global address?
[15:19:45] <Peter Hessler_web_711> yes it is
[15:19:53] <Peter Hessler_web_711> sorry, meant to say that
[15:19:58] <Nicolai Leymann_web_434> We use a link local IPv6 Address for address resolution in the local network for residential customers.
[15:20:57] <Erik Nygren_web_244> Nicolai: how does that work interface scope-wise?
[15:22:33] <Peter Hessler_web_711> the client knows what interface they received the slaac or dhcpv6 announcement on, so they can use that when configuring dns information.  or, if it was added manually, then the host admin will need to add that by hand.
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[15:24:26] <Erik Nygren_web_244> permissions issues, I think
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[15:25:08] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> As the AD, I am interested to know whether putting ADD/DPRIVE in the same slot is interesting (time efficiency and agenda conflict reduction). Over email preferred (unicast or mailing list).
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[15:26:02] <Glenn Deen_web_799> @EV - only would work again if the tools supported splitting better.
[15:26:06] <Kevin Fleming_web_122> as a relative newcomer who had just started lurking in DPRIVE and was not aware of ADD at all, this worked out quite well for me and I'll now start lurking in ADD as well
[15:26:30] <Tim Wicinski_web_844> all lurkers welcome!
[15:26:53] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> Excellent; welcome, Kevin! Not too long ago I too lurked.
[15:26:57] <Glenn Deen_web_799> that should be an IETF shirt - Lurkers most welcome
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[15:27:22] <Kevin Fleming_web_122> probably shouldn't use the word 'public' here, but 'global scope' instead?
[15:27:42] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> +1 to what Ben exactly just said: "closeness" is not a metric I want to rely on
[15:28:22] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> @glenn I'd wear that, presuming I ever get to attend in person to show it off to anyone but my dog :(
[15:28:39] <Peter Hessler_web_711> scope is trivial for clients.  they have to know the interface they learned it from
[15:28:47] <Kevin Fleming_web_122> weirdos like me use global-scope IPv6 addresses as *anycast* to reach in-network resolvers, so link-local-scope would not work there
[15:30:03] <Tim Wicinski_web_844> Gold Stars all around!
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[15:30:14] <Éric Vyncke_web_499> Thanks to the chairs & delegates
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[15:30:18] <Tommy Jensen_web_231> Thanks, take care!
[15:30:19] <Peter Hessler_web_711> thanks all!
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[15:30:22] <Andrew Campling_web_263> Thanks co-chairs
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