IETF
add
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Thursday, March 11, 2021< ^ >
Benno Overeinder has set the subject to: IETF 110 - ADD
Room Configuration
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[11:58:27] <Yoshiro Yoneya> I still love jabber client :-)
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[11:59:03] <Éric Vyncke_web_324> and what is nice is to detach it in a separate window
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[11:59:29] <Éric Vyncke_web_324> and move the meetecho chat on another screen
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[12:00:51] <Eliot Lear_web_446> 13:00 CET 12:00 GMT
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[12:00:55] <Éric Vyncke_web_324> Local time 1300 ;-) quite convenient
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[12:01:13] <Chris Lemmons_web_478> It's a real party in here. :)
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[12:01:19] <Ted Hardie_web_856> This session is against saag, so it may be fewer this time.
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[12:01:44] <Andrew Campling_web_134> @Eric the Meetecho / Jabber integration is pretty impressive
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[12:02:48] <ekr@jabber.org> Dear chairs: it would have been helpful to have an agenda so we could more easily figure out where to be
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[12:03:00] <ekr@jabber.org> As opposed to the current blank agenda
[12:03:01] <Eliot Lear_web_446> it's in the notes, ekr
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[12:03:16] <ekr@jabber.org> @Eliot: there's a reason we have an agenda on the data tracker
[12:03:20] <ekr@jabber.org> So people have a one stop shop
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[12:04:04] <Eliot Lear_web_446> FYI-Welcome
    NOTE WELL
    Scribe selection (Eliot)
    Agenda bashing
    Chairs & AD Comments
Continued discussion from Session 1
DNR Discussion continued
Issues & Discussion
Split-Horizon DNS Configuration in Enterprise Networks
DNS Server Information with Assertion Token
Open Microphone
Planning & Wrap up
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[12:06:10] <ekr@jabber.org> ty
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[12:08:12] <dkg> so all future IETF presentations will be in verse
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[12:08:47] <Andrew Campling_web_134> Show tunes during the break at the 1 hour mark?
[12:08:50] <Tommy Jensen_web_619> +1 dkg, will we also have an orchestra?
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[12:09:23] <dkg> Tommy Jensen_web_619: yes, a high-latency accompanying orchestra, where each line arrives with non-deterministic jitter
[12:09:25] <Éric Vyncke_web_324> Sorry my Mac CPU went to the rough: I simply wanted to thank Barry for being the AD for ADD for many meetings. ADD is now on the right track :-)
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[12:10:23] <Tommy Jensen_web_619> @dkg :grinning_face_with_star_eyes:
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[12:11:07] <Martin Thomson_web_507> I don't get why there is a need for a port here.
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[12:11:18] <ekr@jabber.org> This whole thing is cnfusing
[12:11:27] <Tommy Pauly_web_349> I don't get why this is conditional on DNSSEC..
[12:11:38] <ekr@jabber.org> I am just totally confused
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[12:11:51] <Tirumaleswar Reddy.K_web_398> SVCB DNS draft does not mandate DNSSEC
[12:12:04] <Tommy Pauly_web_349> But it doesn't need to
[12:12:04] <ekr@jabber.org> And for obvious reasons, the server doesnt know what the client knows
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[12:12:20] <Andrew Campling_web_134> @MT I thought that the port number question was explained on the mailing list?
[12:12:24] <Martin Thomson_web_507> Are these slides on DT?
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[12:12:51] <tale > They will be soonish; they only came in recently
[12:13:03] <Martin Thomson_web_507> Hmm.
[12:13:58] <ekr@jabber.org> Ugh.
[12:14:09] <Éric Vyncke_web_825> Tale any chance to upload them during the WG meeting? Some people (even in 2021) could have difficultes with the slide sharing
[12:14:23] <ekr@jabber.org> and also would like to look ahead
[12:14:27] <Libor Peltan_web_819> Sorry for me being temporarily confused. What is the "server" and "client" here now? From the set of { authoritative, recursive, stub, else... } Thx!
[12:14:29] <tale > trying too, yes, just poked Glenn on it
[12:14:30] <Jim Reid_web_417> @dkg, Have you been drinking Huawei's New IP kool-aid? :-)
[12:14:33] <Martin Thomson_web_507> If the source of your name is bad, then you get bad results.
[12:15:02] <Glenn Deen_web_302> Slides for this talk are now in datatracker
[12:15:07] <Glenn Deen_web_302> just approved them.
[12:15:10] <tale > thank you Glenn
[12:15:10] <Éric Vyncke_web_825> Thank you for the slides
[12:15:19] <tale > (I just also got the "already been approved" message)
[12:15:31] <Glenn Deen_web_302> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/materials/slides-110-add-sessa-a-proposal-for-dnr-theory-of-operation-00
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[12:16:22] <Martin Thomson_web_507> Thanks Glenn, got them, doesn't really help much.  (I've not been able to follow the discussion closely and was hoping that this would help.  It doesn't.)
[12:19:29] <Tommy Pauly_web_349> Agreed that we don't need both arms, but why not just the first without DNSSEC?
[12:20:13] <Glenn Deen_web_302> slides being used for today's agenda are at:  https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/materials/slides-110-add-add-session-slides-01
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[12:21:32] <ekr@jabber.org> BTW, it would *also* be reasonable to require DNSSEC
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[12:21:42] <ekr@jabber.org> I mean, not advisable in my opinion, but reasonable
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[12:22:17] <Andrew Campling_web_134> @ekr what's your view on the downside of requiring DNSSEC?
[12:22:18] <tale > require?
[12:22:36] <ekr@jabber.org> 1. It's more cruft. 2. What makes you think this thing has a public name
[12:23:19] <Eliot Lear_web_446> well put, Ben.
[12:23:26] <Erik Nygren_web_585> You may also need the ADN in addition to the SVCB list.  (As presumably the ADN remains the authority/owner/public name, but the ADN is used for certificate validation and SNI?)
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[12:24:00] <Jim Reid_web_417> Zillions of lines of code for DNSSEC validation is probably impractical for many clients: IoT devices and CPE for instance.
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[12:25:42] <Daniel Migault_web_717> zillion might be a bit over estimate ;-)
[12:25:45] <ekr@jabber.org> Erik: good point
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[12:26:46] <Jim Reid_web_417> How about a bazillion Daniel? :-)
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[12:27:07] <dkg> as long as it's not a trizillion it should be ok
[12:27:11] <Chris Box_web_624> +1 to Glenn: keep it simple on the DHCP server
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[12:27:32] <ekr@jabber.org> To recap what I said: use a hash
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[12:27:55] <Martin Thomson_web_507> The problem isn't compression, but operational complexity, I would expect.
[12:28:00] <dkg> or encourage the DHCP server to fetch the svcb record directly
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[12:28:05] <ekr@jabber.org> good idea, dkg
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[12:28:14] <Chris Box_web_624> Agree that sending SVCB contents, or a hash of these contents, would be a fairly simple thing to implement.
[12:28:18] <Daniel Migault_web_717> DNSSEC seems useful to me if we assume Do53 may be used. This woudl be the case if there is a possibility in my view - if there are mulitple ways to perform edns and the network do not provide the subset supported by the client.
[12:28:24] <Neil Cook_web_578> DNR shouldn't *require* a DNS lookup. DHCP should be able to provide everything locally
[12:28:33] <dkg> so for configuration, you just give it the name(s), and it's responsible (or your config mgmt system is responsible) for populating it
[12:28:50] <tale > Is the size of svcb really much of a concern here?  why?
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[12:28:56] <ekr@jabber.org> Sorry, I am speaking
[12:29:01] <ekr@jabber.org> but apparently nobody can hear me.
[12:29:03] <Martin Thomson_web_507> DHCPv4 has a size limit of 256.
[12:29:04] <dkg> Neil Cook_web_578: agreed, you want it to be simple
[12:29:07] <ekr@jabber.org> Even though the level meter is working
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[12:29:14] <ekr@jabber.org> Meetecho
[12:29:27] <Erik Nygren_web_585> although the hash seems like a synchronization issue and in the end is more complexity?
[12:29:27] <ekr@jabber.org> Grrr..
[12:29:41] <Ben Schwartz> dkg: That ends up requiring DNS security on the DHCP server, or you have an insecure bootstrap there.  (I think this is manageable via DNSSEC for Encrypted DNS.)
[12:29:42] <dkg> Martin Thomson_web_507: 256 octets, not bits, right?
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[12:29:46] <Eliot Lear_web_446> EKR reload
[12:29:57] <ekr@jabber.org> I think it's important to understand what the constraints are: is it (1) size (2) coordination (3) or "complexity"
[12:29:58] <Martin Thomson_web_507> dkg: 255 octets concretely
[12:30:05] <ekr@jabber.org> If it's (1) then a hash works
[12:30:20] <ekr@jabber.org> if it's coordination as indicated by Ben, then no
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[12:30:28] <Daniel Migault_web_717> @ben +1
[12:30:30] <Chris Box_web_624> Yes, dynamic SVCB is a problem
[12:30:31] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_712> Agree with Ben
[12:30:40] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_712> on the hash part
[12:31:08] <Martin Thomson_web_507> operational complexity is pretty significant if the DHCP server needs to make DNS requests and ensure that these are secure
[12:31:09] <Cullen Jennings_web_377> Anything dynamic will also be a huge problem with manyDHCP servers
[12:31:31] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_712> Not the record size but the guidelines  of designing DHCPP options
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[12:32:09] <ekr@jabber.org> OK,  unmuted the wrong tab. My bad!
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[12:32:22] <alex-meetecho> ekr@jabber.org: what's your issue? you were speaking in SAAG when you typed here that nobody was hearing you?
[12:32:31] <Neil Cook_web_578> Why is there an assumption that the information in the DHCP server must be coming from DNS? It could be configured locally
[12:32:32] <ekr@jabber.org> yeah. That Im an idiot
[12:32:35] <alex-meetecho> ack
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[12:32:42] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_712> TTL is overlapping with Preferred Lifetime in RAs
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[12:32:56] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_712> and so on
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[12:33:05] <alex-meetecho> (I didn't want to ack the idiot part of course! :)))
[12:33:16] <ekr@jabber.org> No worries. Pilot error is a thing
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[12:33:35] <Tommy Jensen_web_619> @Neil: I think the concern is around dynamic configuration (if the DHCP server consults the DNS, changing settings is easy for the ISP, etc.)
[12:33:35] <Tirumaleswar Reddy.K_web_398> I agree Ben, will check with DHC WG if this works for them.
[12:33:36] <Cullen Jennings_web_377> How big roughly would resolved SVCB be ?
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[12:34:17] <Martin Thomson_web_507> SVCB will be a name (probably ".") and a few integers in this case.  DoH has a slightly longer form for its template.
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[12:34:19] <Neil Cook_web_578> @Tommy Jenson: Sure, but we could be talking about running a local DNS resolver/forwarder and ISPs may not be involved
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[12:34:30] <Martin Thomson_web_507> Maybe 10s of bytes.
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[12:34:38] <Martin Thomson_web_507> ECH adds a bunch though.
[12:34:51] <dkg> and RRSIGs?
[12:34:58] <dkg> it does start to sound tight
[12:35:07] <Tirumaleswar Reddy.K_web_398> it also carries DoH URI templates
[12:35:08] <tale > rrsigs in the dchp?
[12:35:10] <ekr@jabber.org> well, that suggests that as Ben indicates we should just strip out that stuff
[12:35:27] <dkg> tale : based on claims that we care about clients supporting dnssec
[12:35:30] <Glenn Deen_web_302> still 24hr DHCP leases in some plsces
[12:35:35] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_712> If TTL was a problem, it should be already an issue with widely used Do53 DHCP options
[12:35:47] <Ben Schwartz> By "resolved SVCB" I mean "Just the SvcParams plus the server IPs".  Excluding the size of the server IPs (which is a fixed cost), it's just the ALPN list and DoH path (not the full template).
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[12:36:09] <ekr@jabber.org> Wait. Why are we just moving forward with the next slide?
[12:36:12] <Ben Schwartz> Thanks for the correction Eliot
[12:36:28] <Victor Kuarsingh_web_869> forcing (expecting) low DHCP lease times will be problematic.  Thats often an operational setting which changes and/or adjusted for operational reasons.  IMO
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[12:37:11] <Martin Thomson_web_507> requiring DoT is both unacceptable and unnecessary
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[12:37:53] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_712> agree
[12:37:58] <Tirumaleswar Reddy.K_web_398> +1
[12:38:23] <Tommy Jensen_web_619> Can we do that here on call since we're saving time from skipping the rest of the deck?
[12:39:09] <Neil Cook_web_578> I like the idea of "resolved SVCB"
[12:39:36] <ekr@jabber.org> I mostly agree with Ben Schwartz's comments on this
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[12:39:37] <Glenn Deen_web_302> @Tommy - bring up any additional points in the open mic section
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[12:40:03] <Tommy Jensen_web_619> @glenn - no worries, I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion on this draft, I'll take to list as suggested
[12:40:43] <Martin Thomson_web_507> So it seems to me that we need to understand if this is just SVCB contents or if you need RRSIG.  The DHCP server could provide details for a name of its choice.  In that case you are already completely at the mercy of your DHCP server and RRSIG adds nothing.
[12:41:07] <dkg> human-friendly seems problematic from both localization and security perspectives
[12:41:08] <Ben Schwartz> Agreed, no RRSIGs in DHCP
[12:41:13] <Neil Cook_web_578> +1
[12:41:19] <Martin Thomson_web_507> That keeps the size manageable without hashing.  The main concern is coordination.  Having DHCP query DNS might be operationally fraught.
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[12:42:57] <Neil Cook_web_578> I'm not sure DHCP coordination is in-scope for the draft. There are multiple ways to update that information (and that's assuming it wasn't just entered locally for an entirely private setup)
[12:42:59] <Jim Reid_web_417> Ben should go and sit on the naughty step. TXT CHAOS??
[12:43:12] <Erik Nygren_web_585> Using CHAOS class does make it much less likely things will get relayed.
[12:43:21] <Eliot Lear_web_446> @Erik lol!
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[12:44:05] <Jason Weil_web_825> agree with Martin. Having DHCP query DNS before responding to a DHC request sounds like a nightmare
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[12:45:01] <Erik Nygren_web_585> (But seriously, this did come up and some of the recursive developers were saying that having an SUDN be in CHAOS class is safer than IN class if there's a concern that it might get forwarded.  Although I'm sure some will still try and forward.)
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[12:45:31] <dkg> the query shouldn't be done as a blocking query -- it should be pre-fetched
[12:45:32] <Ben Schwartz> There's nothing saying the DHCP server has to query DNS, but it needs some way to learn the server's parameters.  If the server is local, this is trivial.  If the server is remote, then it can use DNS or a nonstandard mechanism.
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[12:46:14] <Neil Cook_web_578> agreed
[12:46:31] <Jim Reid_web_417> Could a SUDN in CHAOS clash with anyone using CHAOS for real?
[12:46:53] <Ben Schwartz> CHAOS is effectively the server meta-info class IMHO
[12:46:59] <Ben Schwartz> Chaosnet is long forgotten
[12:47:06] <Andrew Campling_web_134> @Glenn Give Tale a chance to tune up for the show tunes
[12:47:06] <Eliot Lear_web_446> not by some
[12:47:49] <Éric Vyncke_web_825> @Eliot still close to my heart with Symbolics
[12:47:49] <Glenn Deen_web_302> @Andrew - we aren't ilcensed for performance of music
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[12:48:24] <Jim Reid_web_417> Well Ben, we remember Chaosnet. :-) I'm not sure we can authoritatively say it's dead.
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[12:48:31] <Andrew Campling_web_134> @Glenn will it count as music? :-)
[12:49:11] <Chris Box_web_624> YouTube's copyright detection will be the judge of that :-)
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[12:50:40] <Martin Thomson_web_507> Why would a client use this in place of just using the network-provided resolver in cases where it wanted to do split-DNS?
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[12:51:28] <Tommy Pauly_web_349> This would be for a case where the client by default doesn't use the network provided resolver, right?
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[12:51:44] <Petr Špaček_web_959> @Martin Thompson: Can you elaborate? Do you mean using network-provided resolver by default?
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[12:52:32] <Petr Špaček_web_959> I mean "VPN-provided resolver by default".
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[12:55:54] <Martin Thomson_web_507> I think that Ben caught my comment.
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[12:57:30] <Victor Kuarsingh_web_869> if there are issues with connectivity  due to multiple resolvers (for various underlying reasons), how does a client get support?  today, with provider supplied DNS, that's managed with a support stratum.
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[12:58:02] <Jim Reid_web_417> I support WG adoption
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[12:59:52] <Glenn Deen_web_302> my apologies if this slide is too cheery for the US West coast attendees
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[13:00:24] <Tommy Jensen_web_149> Ok were you prepared with that slide, or just happily making content live? And it's not too cheery, ADD always wakes me up.
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[13:01:42] <Andrew Campling_web_134> Any Asian or ANZAC attendees will probably be blinking because of the glare
[13:01:54] <Glenn Deen_web_302> I just made it.
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[13:02:31] <Neil Cook_web_578> I really like the idea of an ADD Break :)
[13:02:38] <Glenn Deen_web_302> Next meeting we'll program Tale singing in the theme music.
[13:03:07] <Chris Box_web_624> It looks like sunrise on a planet orbiting a yellow main sequence star and a white-hot supergiant.
[13:03:31] <Glenn Deen_web_302> which means we need someone to author draft-add-theme-music-00 and submit it.
[13:03:37] <Tommy Jensen_web_149> Ok, now I can't unsee that Chris.
[13:03:56] <tale > and dyson panels
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[13:04:06] <Glenn Deen_web_302> that's no moon
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[13:04:42] <Tommy Jensen_web_149> The chairs bringing top notch sci-fi commentary. 10/10 would WG again.
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[13:05:04] <Pete Resnick_web_510> Show tunes during the break
[13:05:31] <Andrew Campling_web_134> Presumably all IETF WG Chairs will do this from now on?
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[13:13:59] <Chris Box_web_624> This one? https://github.com/ietf-wg-add/draft-ietf-add-ddr/pull/11
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[13:14:13] <Ben Schwartz> Correct
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[13:15:28] <Daniel Migault_web_806> @tommy look at "that", that being ben's PR ?
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[13:17:39] <Tommy Pauly_web_349> Yeah, Ben's PR
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[13:25:59] <Daniel Migault_web_806> are you thinking of a ui?
[13:26:03] <Tommy Jensen_web_668> Ooo, let's not give users "tap once to persist the transient attack" buttons
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[13:27:34] <Tommy Pauly_web_349> +1 to having structured agenda
[13:27:35] <David Schinazi_web_735> That would require posting an agenda :-)
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[13:28:50] <Eliot Lear_web_561> +1 one to what EKR is saying.  I think there are UX issues hiding here that are difficult.
[13:29:05] <Tommy Jensen_web_668> +1 to ekr as well, that was my
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[13:29:26] <Tommy Jensen_web_668> point
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[13:29:34] <Ben Schwartz> +1.  Also operationally, how does the network get its configuration unpinned?
[13:29:46] <Eliot Lear_web_561> I think the open mic tameness indicates that there is real work going on in the drafts.
[13:29:54] <Andrew Campling_web_134> Isn't this analogous to existing options that ask which networks a user trusts?
[13:30:10] <Tommy Pauly_web_349> Right, we need to focus on actual issues now, not open-ended brainstorming
[13:30:55] <Eliot Lear_web_561> Honeestly it's a relief when we get to this point in a WG lifecycle.
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[13:31:14] <ekr@jabber.org> I also move to adjourn
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[13:31:24] <Daniel Migault_web_806> @ekr thanks for the clarification.
[13:32:00] <Glenn Deen_web_302> @ekr & Elliot we will be momentarily
[13:32:44] <Eliot Lear_web_561> Just to EKR's point, a draft is important. Every technology we have was impossible until it was possible.
[13:32:48] <Eliot Lear_web_561> So who knows?
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[13:33:51] <ekr@jabber.org> I feel like we had dispensed with this legal entity thing
[13:34:02] <ekr@jabber.org> After like 20 disussions of EV
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[13:36:02] <Éric Vyncke_web_640> Bye thanks to the chairs
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[13:36:05] <Erik Nygren_web_585> Using an ADN as an authority / stable name which can be authenticated has some nice properties for this sort of thing?  (and then the SVCB disconnects it from the underlying implementation)
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[13:36:47] <John Woodworth_web_263> Thanks everyone
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[13:37:02] <Glenn Deen_web_302> Thanks to Elliot for scribing!
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