IETF
add
add@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, July 23, 2019< ^ >
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[16:54:07] stpeter joins the room
[17:14:42] Meetecho joins the room
[17:15:33] VirtualQueue_lAFUhJJE joins the room
[17:21:36] Yoshiro Yoneya joins the room
[17:23:20] Thomas Peterson joins the room
[17:23:48] york@jabber.isoc.org joins the room
[17:25:06] Martin Stewart joins the room
[17:25:08] Dave Cleland joins the room
[17:25:09] David Kinzel joins the room
[17:25:09] Andrew Campling joins the room
[17:25:09] Paul Adair joins the room
[17:25:10] Andy Fidler joins the room
[17:25:10] Richard Franks joins the room
[17:25:10] Avri Doria joins the room
[17:25:10] Tommy Jensen joins the room
[17:25:10] Robert Sayre joins the room
[17:25:11] Carsten Strotmann joins the room
[17:25:11] Yoshiro YONEYA joins the room
[17:25:11] Ned Freed joins the room
[17:26:05] york@jabber.isoc.org leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[17:26:06] york@jabber.isoc.org joins the room
[17:26:07] Brett Carr joins the room
[17:26:30] Sara Dickinson joins the room
[17:26:35] Iain Sharp joins the room
[17:27:18] Nigel Tedeschi joins the room
[17:27:20] Yoshiro YONEYA leaves the room
[17:27:33] ted.h joins the room
[17:28:04] Martin Thomson joins the room
[17:28:04] Stacie Hoffmann joins the room
[17:28:13] Andrew Campling leaves the room
[17:28:14] Andrew Campling joins the room
[17:28:24] Alister Winfield joins the room
[17:28:42] Yoshiro YONEYA joins the room
[17:28:52] craigt joins the room
[17:29:34] Suzanne joins the room
[17:29:56] Katharine Daly joins the room
[17:30:00] Yoshiro YONEYA leaves the room
[17:30:01] Philippe Fouquart joins the room
[17:30:03] neednnelg@blah.im joins the room
[17:30:20] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE joins the room
[17:30:27] Shumon Huque joins the room
[17:30:32] Jonathan Lennox joins the room
[17:30:38] Franck Journoud joins the room
[17:30:39] Philippe Fouquart leaves the room
[17:30:44] Alex Deacon joins the room
[17:30:45] <Martin Thomson> Convenient that our Jabber scribe is listed at the top of the roster.
[17:30:47] Kazuho Oku joins the room
[17:30:48] joehall joins the room
[17:30:57] Yoshiro Yoneya joins the room
[17:30:58] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> /topic: Background - Lars
[17:31:01] Matt Green joins the room
[17:31:01] wseltzer joins the room
[17:31:05] Brian Haberman joins the room
[17:31:09] <Avri Doria> this degree of preparedness is remarkable and laudable.
[17:31:11] Yoshiro YONEYA joins the room
[17:31:12] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> \topic
[17:31:13] Jason Livingood joins the room
[17:31:28] Keith Mitchell joins the room
[17:31:37] <ted.h> Warren's is an interpretive dance, in style of Twyla Tharp.
[17:31:40] Jody Kolker joins the room
[17:32:03] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: 'Background - Lars'
[17:32:17] Jim Helman joins the room
[17:32:20] Kevin Smith joins the room
[17:32:21] SHollenbeck joins the room
[17:32:33] pardue joins the room
[17:32:36] Bernard Volz joins the room
[17:32:44] Philippe Fouquart joins the room
[17:32:48] Jan Komissar joins the room
[17:32:50] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: ' ADD BoF Intro'
[17:32:51] Sara Dickinson leaves the room
[17:32:58] Sara Dickinson joins the room
[17:33:02] Kevin Smith leaves the room
[17:33:04] jmce joins the room
[17:33:06] Guillermo Cicileo joins the room
[17:33:09] Jesse Kipp joins the room
[17:33:11] ekr@jabber.org joins the room
[17:33:13] Kevin Smith joins the room
[17:33:21] Erik Nordmark joins the room
[17:33:22] Jody Kolker leaves the room
[17:33:23] Jody Kolker joins the room
[17:33:30] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> If you want a statement relayed to the microphone, preface it with "MIC: "
[17:33:41] <york@jabber.isoc.org> Tale's slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-add-add-bof-intro-00
[17:33:51] Franck Journoud leaves the room
[17:34:15] Philippe Fouquart leaves the room
[17:34:19] Franck Journoud joins the room
[17:34:31] Kevin Smith leaves the room
[17:34:40] Kevin Smith joins the room
[17:34:43] Philippe Fouquart joins the room
[17:34:44] Andrew Campling leaves the room
[17:34:45] Andrew Campling joins the room
[17:34:50] Anestis Karasaridis joins the room
[17:35:26] Barry Leiba joins the room
[17:35:33] Zen Hardy joins the room
[17:35:35] Takahiro Nemoto joins the room
[17:35:36] Anestis Karasaridis leaves the room
[17:35:50] Hugh Dixon joins the room
[17:35:52] Zen Hardy leaves the room
[17:35:54] Alex Deacon leaves the room
[17:35:55] Alex Deacon joins the room
[17:35:56] Anestis Karasaridis joins the room
[17:37:19] Anestis Karasaridis leaves the room
[17:37:20] Anestis Karasaridis joins the room
[17:37:42] nygren joins the room
[17:37:58] Shayan joins the room
[17:38:24] Anestis Karasaridis leaves the room
[17:38:41] sftcd joins the room
[17:39:01] Peter Koch joins the room
[17:39:40] Peter Van Roste joins the room
[17:39:46] Kazuho Oku leaves the room
[17:39:52] Barry Leiba leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[17:39:53] Barry Leiba joins the room
[17:40:30] Martin Thomson leaves the room
[17:40:42] Hany Fahmy joins the room
[17:41:00] Wayne Thayer joins the room
[17:41:05] craigt leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[17:41:16] Hany Fahmy leaves the room
[17:41:40] Hany Fahmy joins the room
[17:42:22] Alex Deacon leaves the room
[17:42:23] Alex Deacon joins the room
[17:43:30] Brian Haberman joins the room
[17:43:32] Bernard Volz leaves the room
[17:43:46] Brian Haberman leaves the room
[17:43:52] frodek joins the room
[17:44:01] Hany Fahmy leaves the room
[17:44:04] Anestis Karasaridis joins the room
[17:44:25] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: "Mozilla’s vision for DNS & apps - Martin Thomson"
[17:44:25] Yoshiro Yoneya leaves the room
[17:44:35] Guillermo Cicileo leaves the room
[17:44:37] Hany Fahmy joins the room
[17:44:41] Dragana Damjanovic joins the room
[17:44:45] Anestis Karasaridis leaves the room
[17:45:06] Hany Fahmy leaves the room
[17:45:10] <ted.h> Martin's slides appear to be:  https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-add-dns-in-applications-one-applications-perspective-00.pdf
[17:46:09] meichen Li joins the room
[17:46:31] Taiji Kimura joins the room
[17:46:47] Hany Fahmy joins the room
[17:47:05] Paul Brears joins the room
[17:47:32] <wseltzer> MT: "bad people also brush their teeth"
[17:48:06] Hany Fahmy leaves the room
[17:48:13] Hany Fahmy joins the room
[17:48:25] gg joins the room
[17:48:58] ssahib joins the room
[17:49:41] Hany Fahmy leaves the room
[17:49:59] Hany Fahmy joins the room
[17:51:55] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[17:55:01] craigt joins the room
[17:55:26] Joseph Yee joins the room
[17:56:10] Keith Moore joins the room
[17:56:45] Marshall Erwin joins the room
[17:56:48] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: "Google’s perspective"
[17:56:57] Martin Thomson joins the room
[17:56:57] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[17:57:02] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[17:58:12] <Martin Thomson> wseltzer: better or worse than the needle sharing analogy?
[17:58:48] <ekr@jabber.org> Just to clarify: we intend to respect group policy/MDM as well
[17:58:56] <ted.h> @MT  "Clean your works" is basically "clean your toothbrush" for the at-risk set.  
[17:59:38] Bjorn Hjelm joins the room
[17:59:42] <sftcd> people are interested, I'd bet:-)
[17:59:42] <Jonathan Lennox> Martin: you didn't mention DNS64 explicitly.  Are you considering this equivalent to the other split-horizon DNS issues?
[18:00:15] <Martin Thomson> Jonathan Lennox: Yeah.
[18:00:41] <Brett Carr> @ekr mdm/group policy just short term or also long term?
[18:01:07] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: "Non-browser apps doing DNS - Jim Reid"
[18:01:18] <ekr@jabber.org> @Brett: long term
[18:01:31] <ekr@jabber.org> In short: if you control the machine, you can configure it however you want
[18:01:38] <Brett Carr> thanks :) That message wasn't clear in the presentation
[18:02:28] <ekr@jabber.org> Brett: sorry about that. It was in my mail to the list a while back, but if the opportunity presents itself, I will clarify at the mic
[18:03:32] Marshall Erwin leaves the room
[18:03:55] Sarah Laplante joins the room
[18:04:43] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: "DoH Preference Hints for HTTP - David Schinazi"
[18:04:46] <ekr@jabber.org> Currently, as a heuristic, if we detect that the decice is centrally managed (e.g., it has any Firefox enterprise policy) we default to disabling DoH. In the future, we'll probably let you use enterprise policy to configure DoH, but I'm not sure if we do now
[18:04:54] <sftcd> did the google chap say they had anything like the TRR concept in the works? I think he didn't but mighta missed it
[18:05:39] <stpeter> ekr@jabber.org - I don't think we use enterprise policy to configure DoH, but I can check with the team and post to the list
[18:05:52] <ekr@jabber.org> sftcd: I did not hear that, no
[18:05:57] <sftcd> ta
[18:06:05] <Brett Carr> no he didnt
[18:06:42] Kevin Smith leaves the room
[18:07:18] <nygren > (See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1538477 for Mozilla TRR+NAT64 interaction.)
[18:07:29] Arturo Servin joins the room
[18:08:11] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[18:09:09] Stephen Strowes joins the room
[18:09:23] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Daniel Kahn Gilmore
[18:10:23] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Eric Rescorla
[18:11:45] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Kip
[18:12:01] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> correction speaking: Kenji Baheux
[18:12:52] Bernard Volz joins the room
[18:13:01] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Rob Storr (?)
[18:13:05] sftcd doesn't understand how DNS server selection is really a "preference" at least for a human
[18:13:19] <stpeter> Brett, actually Firefox does have an enterprise policy for DoH, see https://github.com/mozilla/policy-templates/blob/master/README.md#dnsoverhttps
[18:13:38] <Brian Haberman> @Aaron: Story
[18:13:51] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: "DoH BCP — Chris Box, Andy Fidler"
[18:14:14] <ekr@jabber.org> sftcd: We basically agree.
[18:14:30] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[18:14:41] <Brett Carr> stpeter yes i was aware I was just clarifying it was here for the long term
[18:14:59] <ekr@jabber.org> I.e., we would expect to have a pulldown that would let you pick your own provider ("I like quad 9") but we expect most people will stick with the default
[18:15:01] <stpeter> Brett Carr - OK
[18:15:25] <sftcd> a 12 bullet stack! ;-)
[18:15:33] <ekr@jabber.org> It's a lot of bullets
[18:15:33] <Andrew Campling> How do address antitruct / gatekeeper concerns arising from a dropdown list?
[18:15:53] <ted.h> "technical challenges" is a nice phrase.  Calming, even.
[18:16:06] <ekr@jabber.org> Antitrust is a legal question, so not really something I'm prepared to address here.
[18:17:17] <ekr@jabber.org> As for gatekeeping: we have a policy that describes our expectations and at least so far we haven't had such a large number of people that we had to worry about choosing between policy-compliant servers
[18:17:57] <ekr@jabber.org> Or rather "which policy-compliant servers to put in the dropdown"
[18:18:54] <Jason Livingood> Ordering is interesting. Maybe order them with the lowest RTT at the top of the list?
[18:18:55] <ted.h> Aren't many of these performance questions the same for DoH used outside of applications?  I mean, is this a DoH question or an ADD question?
[18:19:37] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[18:19:39] <Tommy Jensen> Regarding ordering: can also be random per client (thinking about browser reference from Windows 7 in the EU)
[18:19:41] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[18:19:49] <Brett Carr> looks like both to me, valid questions though
[18:19:57] Takahiro Nemoto leaves the room
[18:20:21] <sftcd> @ted: is it more feasible for applications doing DNS to tweak for what they need than for OSes maybe?
[18:20:23] <Hugh Dixon> neither and both, I suspect - "application" is a broad chuch ...  and DoT has mostly the same aspects
[18:20:37] <Hugh Dixon> (@ted.h)
[18:20:56] <Andrew Campling> AGreed - all these issues arise by giving apps the ability to do DNS (irrespective of the type of DNS)
[18:21:07] <Tommy Jensen> sftcd:   possibly, but is it more feasible for admins to configure per platform or per app?
[18:21:36] <ted.h> @Tommy which admins, I guess, is the question Chris Box is getting at, under all this.
[18:22:16] <sftcd> I took Ted's question to be about the performance aspects, not just server-selection - do admins change DNS settings for perf reasons? (Commonly I mean)
[18:22:31] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Barbara Stark
[18:24:15] <sftcd> barbara clarified the hell outta that:-)
[18:24:30] Samuel Weiler joins the room
[18:24:34] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Terry Manderson
[18:24:47] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[18:24:52] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[18:24:59] <Samuel Weiler> odd how the clapping seemed to come (only) from the center/left of the room.  the right was silent.
[18:25:38] <Nigel Tedeschi> The trust anchor question is a great question
[18:25:41] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Lorenzo
[18:25:52] <Brett Carr> thats where all the operators are sat :)
[18:26:01] <nygren > there was clapping on the right as well.
[18:27:32] Hugh Dixon leaves the room
[18:27:46] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Ted Hardie
[18:28:09] <Keith Moore> I thought the purpose of this was to make applications more reliable and predictable by having a service provider be responsible for the DNS lookups that affect operation of that service.   While I'll admit that there are operational considerations associated with this, it strikes me as utterly bizarre that operators think they have a right to dictate how applications implement their services.  As long as DoH or any other application-provided DNS lookup only affects the service providing it, I think operator interest is limited to being able to know when it's causing problems.
[18:28:53] <sftcd> @keith: it seems operators don't agree I guess
[18:29:39] <Keith Moore> operators don
[18:29:57] <Suzanne> Not sure anyone is making assertions about rights, just observations of how things work from the operators' perspective, particularly where knowledge about the network lives.
[18:29:58] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[18:30:03] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[18:30:16] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Kenji Baheux
[18:30:48] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Kathleen Moriarty
[18:30:53] <Keith Moore> longstanding internet problem is that roles of the various players are not clearly defined
[18:30:54] <ted.h> I'm relieved that there was no clapping after my comments.
[18:30:58] <Stacie Hoffmann> Agree with Suzanne, and heretofore operators are under much higher regulator bar than applications. So they could be on the hook for what ends up being an app's decision
[18:31:13] <joehall> I clapped inside @ted.h
[18:31:24] <Brett Carr> I think its perfectly reasonable for operators to assert that this change is going to cause impact to operations and suggest that developing BCPs to assist in stable operations may be a good thing.
[18:31:35] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: "DoH Push — Jim Reid"
[18:31:47] <Keith Moore> being aware of how this could affect operators is not a bad thing
[18:31:51] <ted.h> @joehall, uh, rephrase please?
[18:31:54] <Suzanne> @keith I think a more useful way to think of it is that the roles of the players continues to change, since the internet isn't finished yet.
[18:31:57] Normen Kowalewski joins the room
[18:32:48] <Keith Moore> well there's a longstanding tussle between operators and applications providers, in which the operators keep interfering with applications and the application behavior keeps changing in ways that frustrate operators trying to optimize and support users
[18:33:50] <Andrew Campling> We need to recognise that most users have no idea what DNS is, let alone DoT or DoH.  Also, users don't always have the right to make such a decision (eg in an Eterprise, in a school, a child in a home etc).
[18:34:09] <Keith Moore> depends on how you define "user"
[18:34:28] <stpeter> depends on how you define "right" :-)
[18:34:34] <Andrew Campling> Device administrator might be better?
[18:34:58] <Tommy Jensen> +1 to device admin
[18:35:08] <Keith Moore> maybe.  but from the perspective of an application developer, enterprise IT is damage that breaks applications and needs to be routed around :)
[18:35:09] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[18:35:14] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[18:35:23] Normen Kowalewski leaves the room
[18:35:25] Normen Kowalewski joins the room
[18:35:43] <Jason Livingood> What happens when there is no device admin (e,g. IoT stuff you just plug in and has no UI or way to configure it)
[18:35:58] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Ben Schwartz
[18:36:40] <neednnelg@blah.im> enterprise and non-enterprise might just have enough differences that you need to consider some aspects distinctly for each
[18:36:43] <Stacie Hoffmann> I think we have high expectations of 'device admins' here
[18:36:56] <Keith Moore> Jason: good question.  but in general I don't think the Internet imposes or expects applications to behave in particular ways, except for limited exceptions like paying attention to TCP flow control and rate throttling
[18:37:04] <Tommy Jensen> neednnelg: ideally, but BYOD makes that difficult to separate
[18:37:09] Robert Sayko joins the room
[18:37:36] Robert Sayko leaves the room
[18:37:38] <Tommy Jensen> @Keith: the internet may not, but the platform definitely does (i.e. firewalls)
[18:37:45] <neednnelg@blah.im> BYOD does make it interesting but perhaps a hierarchy of approaches
[18:37:51] Robert Sayko joins the room
[18:37:57] <Jason Livingood> Assuming an end device is trusted, or competently administered, can be problematic. ;-)
[18:38:16] <Keith Moore> Jason: fully agree
[18:38:16] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> @jason you mispelled 'erroneous'
[18:38:28] Arturo Servin leaves the room
[18:38:30] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: "Future — chairs & ADs"
[18:38:42] <Keith Moore> Tommy Jensen: Firewalls are damage to the network  (1/2 :))
[18:38:45] <ekr@jabber.org> @Jason: also, assuming that the network is trusted or competently administered can be problematic
[18:38:52] <Jason Livingood> LOL
[18:39:04] Martin Thomson leaves the room
[18:39:21] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Wes Hardaker
[18:39:44] <Keith Moore> (clap!)
[18:40:04] gg leaves the room: Stream reset by peer
[18:40:20] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[18:40:25] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[18:41:28] Robert Sayko leaves the room
[18:42:02] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Stephen Farrell
[18:42:30] Keith Mitchell leaves the room
[18:42:54] Robert Sayko joins the room
[18:43:21] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: David Lamparter
[18:43:36] Robert Sayko leaves the room
[18:43:51] Robert Sayko joins the room
[18:44:16] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Phil Halem-Baker
[18:45:02] Shayan leaves the room
[18:45:04] <sftcd> is .gestalt a TLD?
[18:45:22] <Keith Moore> (wait a few minutes and ask again)
[18:45:29] <neednnelg@blah.im> iCANN will welcome your money
[18:45:31] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[18:45:36] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[18:45:47] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Roland Van Rijswijk-Deij
[18:45:52] <ted.h> @SFTCD does .meme count?
[18:46:05] <sftcd> only if I look at the whole thing I guess
[18:46:08] Robert Sayko leaves the room
[18:46:37] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Eric Rescorla
[18:47:36] Steve Forrester joins the room
[18:48:12] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Roberto Peon
[18:48:15] <Keith Moore> so better to ignore tussles than to understand them and try to minimize them?
[18:48:35] <Tommy Jensen> @Keith +1 that the issues are painful is not a reason to ignore them
[18:48:58] <Jason Livingood> +1
[18:49:06] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Barbara Stark
[18:49:28] <Andrew Campling> I'd include some of the thorny issues currently labeled (conveniently) as "policy"
[18:49:51] <Andrew Campling> Also, the user experience needs consideration somewhere in all of this
[18:49:52] <Keith Moore> in a sense, when there's pain, there's a need for attention.   IETF has a very bad habit of trying to ignore tussles and hope they'll go away.   though I do expect this tussle is much larger than DNS.
[18:50:09] <sftcd> fwiw, I don't care which IETF area the work might end up in, but we need to defrag it (dprive+doh+dnsop+new-thing is too many IMO)
[18:50:11] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Jari Arkko
[18:50:43] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[18:50:47] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[18:50:48] Martin Thomson joins the room
[18:50:56] <Richard Franks> Gestalt: form, shape, manner, aspect
[18:51:16] <Tommy Jensen> It almost seems like what we really need is a WG to tease out in any given computing environment what component carries "trust" since once that (very small simple thing ;) ) is solved, DNS trust decisions becomes more deterministic
[18:51:45] <sftcd> "once trust is solved" will be after the heat death of the universe
[18:52:02] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Leslie Daigle
[18:52:23] <Tommy Jensen> Agreed, hence the emoji. But we need some consensus on that point or else we'll continue doing what we're doing now with DNS (all running in different directions)
[18:53:51] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Ben Kaduk
[18:54:07] SHollenbeck leaves the room
[18:54:14] Samuel Weiler leaves the room
[18:54:16] <Peter Koch> now we're talking! when there's a 'unique namespace', why dioes the messenger matter?
[18:54:18] Peter Van Roste leaves the room
[18:54:19] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Erik Kline
[18:54:35] Peter Van Roste joins the room
[18:54:54] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Ben Schwartz
[18:55:03] <Keith Moore> well, if you can verify that one source is more authoritative than another, it seems to make sense to trust that source over one that is less authoritative.   (trust doesn't always have to be absolute).   I don't claim that these are always easy comparisons to make, but sometimes they are.
[18:55:05] Barbara Stark joins the room
[18:55:37] <Brett Carr> agreed take the operator issues to dnsop and deal with them there
[18:55:43] Steve Forrester leaves the room
[18:55:54] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[18:55:58] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[18:56:02] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: David Kahn Gilmore
[18:56:06] <sftcd> -1 to that from me fwiw, would tee up making problem worse I'd worry
[18:56:16] ekr@jabber.org leaves the room
[18:56:24] <Peter Koch> dnsop-op has been proposed before, though
[18:56:33] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> dns-postop
[18:56:35] Barbara Stark leaves the room
[18:56:36] <sftcd> opdnsop?
[18:56:49] <ted.h> @aaron I like it!
[18:56:54] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Jon Reed
[18:57:11] Barbara Stark joins the room
[18:57:17] Shayan joins the room
[18:57:25] Shayan leaves the room
[18:57:32] Jonathan Lennox leaves the room
[18:57:36] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Vittorio Bertoli
[18:57:48] <neednnelg@blah.im> dnsploy?
[18:57:54] <Jason Livingood> sp: Bertola
[18:58:09] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Vasily Domotov
[18:58:16] Barry Leiba leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[18:58:20] <Tommy Jensen> It seems everyone is teasing at the same root problem: we can't agree on who should always have final say on DNS (user, network, app, platform). Seems like we should start talking in terms of "WHEN should we trust the netowrk and WHEN should we trust the app" etc.
[18:58:59] Dave Cleland leaves the room
[18:59:13] Jody Kolker leaves the room
[18:59:16] <Tommy Jensen> @Keith: agreed, there are some scenarios we could probably all agree on. We should start by enumerating those and working through the other cases in one doc (say, the BCP Chrix Box was proposing)
[18:59:19] jmce joins the room
[18:59:35] meichen Li leaves the room
[18:59:35] meichen Li joins the room
[18:59:44] Alister Winfield leaves the room
[18:59:45] <Keith Moore> for this specific case where the application is using its own servers (not arbitrary resources on the net), the application absolutely is more authoritative for its DNS information and in a better position to do lookups than the local resolver.
[18:59:46] Alister Winfield joins the room
[18:59:47] wseltzer leaves the room: Stream reset by peer
[18:59:57] <Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE> speaking: Eric Resorla
[19:00:03] <sftcd> I suspect that one BCP document to rule them all might emerge after a cantankerous 5 years;-(
[19:00:07] <Peter Koch> that would have to include the (ab)use of the DNS as a content control plane, which brings us into policy space sonner than later
[19:00:08] Hany Fahmy leaves the room
[19:00:24] joehall leaves the room
[19:00:24] Brian Haberman leaves the room
[19:00:26] <Martin Thomson> Tommy Jensen: No real surprise there.  We don't agree who should have control.  We each claim to speak for the users.
[19:00:29] joehall joins the room
[19:00:49] <Brett Carr> wont somebody think of the users :)
[19:00:59] <Keith Moore> Peter: I don't disagree, but the idea that DNS is a content control plane is already highly dubious (despite it sometimes being a useful countermeasure to attack).   but it should be discussed and better understood.
[19:01:00] Barbara Stark leaves the room
[19:01:05] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[19:01:09] jmce leaves the room
[19:01:09] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[19:01:10] ssahib leaves the room: Connection failed: timeout
[19:01:34] <Tommy Jensen> @Martin: absolutely. But, I would bet we could agree on who has final say in a given scenario. For example, network ops even would probably admit airport wifi network auth is ewaker than ISP at home network auth
[19:01:41] neednnelg@blah.im leaves the room
[19:01:54] ted.h leaves the room
[19:02:02] craigt leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[19:02:06] <Keith Moore> except that there are indeed users who choose alternate DNS services in order to work around brain damage in the networks provided by their ISPs and/or enterprise IT groups.
[19:02:06] ekr@jabber.org joins the room
[19:02:17] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: "Summary & Close"
[19:02:44] <Brett Carr> it might be highly dubious but the DNS is used as a content control plane in many many places
[19:02:44] pardue leaves the room
[19:03:22] <Tommy Jensen> +1 to Keith, even if most users today don't understand DNS, that's no reason to ignore user choice when it exists
[19:03:32] Barbara Stark joins the room
[19:03:40] <Keith Moore> Brett: yes, I understand that.  
[19:03:49] <Tommy Jensen> And I suspect as the populace becomes more privacy aware, DNS will only become more of a user concept
[19:03:52] joehall leaves the room
[19:04:03] <Stacie Hoffmann> If we don't want to talk about policy issues, how can we talk about users?  
[19:04:06] Martin Thomson leaves the room
[19:04:16] <Keith Moore> more generally, it seems like the question is something akin to "who gets to break DNS"?   does the ISP have the right to break DNS?  does the enterprise IT group?   does the network operator?   does the application vendor?
[19:04:17] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE has set the subject to: "FIN"
[19:04:20] <Normen Kowalewski> Will DoH go away? No. Should there be a default? Proboably yes. Should the default be based on policy that is *user* centric and not "Application centric" or "DNS operator centric"?  
[19:04:20] sftcd leaves the room
[19:04:23] Matt Green leaves the room
[19:04:23] Aaron - JABBER SCRIBE leaves the room
[19:04:25] Barbara Stark leaves the room
[19:04:29] Dragana Damjanovic leaves the room
[19:04:29] Suzanne leaves the room
[19:04:31] Andrew Campling leaves the room
[19:04:33] Richard Franks leaves the room
[19:04:40] <Peter Koch> the problem isn't user choice: in a unique namespace, there's no difference; now, of course there is no 'unique namespace', so what to do about that in IETF work, apart from recognizing thef fact?
[19:04:46] Wayne Thayer leaves the room
[19:04:48] Bernard Volz leaves the room
[19:04:48] Tommy Jensen leaves the room
[19:04:48] Alex Deacon leaves the room
[19:04:48] Katharine Daly leaves the room
[19:04:48] Philippe Fouquart leaves the room
[19:04:48] Shumon Huque leaves the room
[19:04:48] Andy Fidler leaves the room
[19:04:48] Iain Sharp leaves the room
[19:04:48] Sarah Laplante leaves the room
[19:04:48] meichen Li leaves the room
[19:04:48] Jan Komissar leaves the room
[19:04:48] Yoshiro YONEYA leaves the room
[19:04:48] Robert Sayre leaves the room
[19:04:48] Jesse Kipp leaves the room
[19:04:48] Carsten Strotmann leaves the room
[19:04:48] David Kinzel leaves the room
[19:04:48] Joseph Yee leaves the room
[19:04:48] Franck Journoud leaves the room
[19:04:48] Jim Helman leaves the room
[19:04:48] Paul Brears leaves the room
[19:04:48] Stacie Hoffmann leaves the room
[19:04:48] Normen Kowalewski leaves the room
[19:04:48] Peter Van Roste leaves the room
[19:04:48] Peter Koch leaves the room
[19:04:48] Paul Adair leaves the room
[19:04:48] Avri Doria leaves the room
[19:04:48] Nigel Tedeschi leaves the room
[19:04:48] Erik Nordmark leaves the room
[19:04:48] Alister Winfield leaves the room
[19:04:48] Stephen Strowes leaves the room
[19:04:48] Martin Stewart leaves the room
[19:04:48] Jason Livingood leaves the room
[19:04:48] Keith Moore leaves the room
[19:04:48] Bjorn Hjelm leaves the room
[19:04:48] Taiji Kimura leaves the room
[19:04:48] Brett Carr leaves the room
[19:04:48] Sara Dickinson leaves the room
[19:04:49] Ned Freed leaves the room
[19:04:56] Thomas Peterson leaves the room: Disconnected: timeout during writing
[19:05:05] nygren leaves the room
[19:05:06] york@jabber.isoc.org leaves the room
[19:06:16] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[19:06:28] Meetecho leaves the room
[19:06:30] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[19:09:39] VirtualQueue_lAFUhJJE leaves the room
[19:10:34] frodek joins the room
[19:10:39] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[19:10:45] frodek leaves the room
[19:10:46] frodek leaves the room
[19:11:16] jmce leaves the room
[19:11:54] york@jabber.isoc.org joins the room
[19:12:26] Samuel Weiler joins the room
[19:13:15] Jonathan Lennox joins the room
[19:14:40] Jonathan Lennox leaves the room
[19:14:46] ekr@jabber.org leaves the room
[19:16:45] Matt Green joins the room
[19:19:05] Matt Green leaves the room
[19:21:10] ted.h joins the room
[19:21:16] ted.h leaves the room
[19:23:25] neednnelg@blah.im joins the room
[19:24:14] neednnelg@blah.im leaves the room
[19:26:46] pardue joins the room
[19:32:53] wseltzer joins the room
[19:32:55] Thomas Peterson joins the room
[19:33:32] craigt joins the room
[19:35:09] craigt leaves the room
[19:37:54] wseltzer leaves the room: Stream reset by peer
[19:43:56] stpeter leaves the room
[19:52:44] nygren joins the room
[19:54:04] wseltzer joins the room
[20:01:25] york@jabber.isoc.org leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[20:01:26] york@jabber.isoc.org joins the room
[20:14:43] wseltzer leaves the room
[20:25:44] nygren leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[20:26:57] VirtualQueue_Ips5UTnz joins the room
[20:46:53] ekr@jabber.org joins the room
[20:49:17] Yoshiro Yoneya leaves the room
[20:50:43] york@jabber.isoc.org leaves the room
[20:56:56] VirtualQueue_Ips5UTnz leaves the room
[21:01:22] pardue leaves the room
[21:03:04] Thomas Peterson leaves the room
[21:03:49] Thomas Peterson joins the room
[21:04:18] york@jabber.isoc.org joins the room
[21:05:13] york@jabber.isoc.org leaves the room
[21:06:46] Thomas Peterson leaves the room
[21:11:34] york@jabber.isoc.org joins the room
[21:12:15] Martin Thomson joins the room
[21:12:18] york@jabber.isoc.org leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[21:12:20] york@jabber.isoc.org joins the room
[21:12:31] Samuel Weiler leaves the room
[21:13:43] Barry Leiba joins the room
[21:14:06] nygren joins the room
[21:14:23] nygren leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[21:14:24] nygren joins the room
[21:19:32] Samuel Weiler joins the room
[21:21:09] pardue joins the room
[21:24:06] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[21:34:07] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[21:34:12] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[21:39:19] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[21:39:24] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[21:40:06] Barry Leiba leaves the room
[21:44:32] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[21:44:35] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[21:45:48] pardue leaves the room
[21:49:33] Barry Leiba joins the room
[21:49:43] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[21:49:51] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[21:50:00] Suzanne joins the room
[21:51:08] Martin Thomson leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[21:51:47] Suzanne leaves the room
[21:52:53] Suzanne joins the room
[21:54:59] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[21:55:03] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[21:55:18] Suzanne leaves the room
[21:56:29] york@jabber.isoc.org leaves the room
[22:00:11] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[22:00:24] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[22:01:29] Barry Leiba leaves the room
[22:05:31] Martin Thomson joins the room
[22:06:31] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[22:06:35] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[22:11:01] Martin Thomson leaves the room
[22:11:13] Samuel Weiler leaves the room
[22:11:43] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[22:11:47] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[22:14:11] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[22:15:49] nygren leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[22:23:39] nygren joins the room
[22:26:48] ekr@jabber.org leaves the room
[22:29:18] nygren leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[22:29:18] nygren joins the room
[22:38:02] grover joins the room
[22:38:17] grover leaves the room
[22:40:02] nygren leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[23:03:39] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[23:08:47] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[23:08:51] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[23:13:59] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[23:14:03] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[23:19:11] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[23:19:21] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[23:24:28] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[23:24:42] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[23:29:50] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
[23:30:04] samat@xmpp.jp joins the room
[23:35:11] samat@xmpp.jp leaves the room
Powered by ejabberd - robust, scalable and extensible XMPP server Powered by Erlang Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional Valid CSS!