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[04:51:08] <mglt> @meet echo. just to double the room is closed and I expect that when the room is opened I will be able to present correct ?
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[04:52:11] <francesca> good morning
[04:52:30] <Marco Tiloca> Good morning everyone!
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[04:56:09] <mglt> can you all see the slides on the screen ?
[04:56:43] <Marco Tiloca> I don't
[04:56:54] <Timothy Claeys> Me neither
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[04:57:55] <Tobia Castaldi> now I can see it
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[04:58:21] <Marco Tiloca> same, it works now
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[05:02:18] <mcr> Jim is stirring the random pool!!!!
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[05:04:08] <Matthew Gillmore> RIP Jim!
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[05:05:57] <francesca> Thanks for these words Ben
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[05:07:26] <francesca> it was well said
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[05:07:40] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I can watch the jabber as well
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[05:08:32] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> The codiMD already has the agenda in place as an outline, to help with
taking minutes!
[05:08:49] <Göran Selander> I can help
[05:08:58] <mglt> https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-109-ace
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[05:12:28] <Göran Selander> I'll do offline notes and update codimd later
[05:13:32] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Okay, I will try to put something in the codimd while Göran is
presenting.
[05:13:45] <francesca> can't hear you Carsten
[05:14:12] <Carsten Bormann> go ahead while I fix the audio
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[05:29:37] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> There's "same" in the sense of knowing what email, offline-access,
etc. mean, and then there's "same" in the sense of knowing that it's
encoded as a cbor bstr containing a cbor array containing individual
tstrs (or whatever)
[05:30:23] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> (I think that matches what Carsten said)
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[05:37:31] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> My intuition says that a CBOR tag is architecturally "cleaner", but
that doesn't speak much to what is easier to implement.
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[05:40:57] <Carsten Bormann> It is probably easier to implement to have a single constant as opposed to dynamically agreeing on something (based on something we don't know yet)
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[05:45:53] <francesca> as Christian said yesterday, at the same time AS and RS already must have had communication previously to C requesting a token, so the dynamically agreed prefix could be easily agreed then..
[05:46:50] <francesca> (to be clear, I don't have a strong preference for either solutions, I think it depends on deployments)
[05:47:53] <francesca> this doc needs to progress together with ace key groupcomm :) So WGLC together with that one
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[06:03:31] <mcr> post the google doc link??
[06:03:42] <obgm> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY/edit
[06:03:42] <mglt> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RtxUSvUeBdZWoQkjSj2c3DtR8DuBwPM2BnBXhoDiptY/edit?usp=sharing
[06:03:49] cabo joins the room
[06:04:14] <francesca> (assuming the charter gets updated after the ace framework + profiles are done?)
[06:04:33] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Sure, we can assume that for sake of discussion
[06:04:53] Oliver Borchert leaves the room
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[06:05:30] <Carsten Bormann> est is done.  profiles for it?
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[06:06:21] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> One could say that coap-est is a "profile" of EST; we are talking
about profiles of coap-est itself, IIUC.
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[06:08:34] <Hendrik Brockhaus> With regard to CMPoverCoAP no profiling of CMP is required. this is different to EST
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[06:10:29] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> (Göran being in the screen-share queue is a little distracting)
[06:11:03] <mcr> I am lost now.
[06:11:04] <Göran Selander> Sorry, fixed
[06:12:42] <Hendrik Brockhaus> I would appreciate this clarification
[06:13:05] <Göran Selander> Fin by me
[06:13:08] <Göran Selander> Fine
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[06:15:17] <Carsten Bormann> Please use page down to scroll
[06:16:01] <mglt> This is what I am using but I do have adjustment issues.
[06:16:38] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> At least (I hope) there is only one full-screen button needed, as
opposed to the IETF-provided chromebooks we had for in-person
meetings!
[06:17:07] <Carsten Bormann> We *could* use full-screen instead of seeing the browser chrome...
[06:17:54] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> (But not on macOS)
[06:17:59] <mglt> so I guess I did not clicked the # sign. to be in full windows. My browser is not taking the full screen .
[06:18:52] <mglt> So this time just page down worked. but I needed to adjust the windiws to the presentation of marco there are different sizes.
[06:19:03] <Carsten Bormann> You also may want to mute while typing...
[06:19:43] <francesca> Re: charter -- "The Working Group will standardize how to use Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) as a transport medium for certificate enrollment protocols" ---> I think the charter should say that the WG will consider for adoption/standardization ... not "will standardize", maybe that's too.. prescriptive?
[06:20:17] <Carsten Bormann> I think ACE should be empowered to actualluy standardize, not just consider
[06:20:45] <francesca> yes but which one should be standardized should be decided on a case to case basis
[06:20:59] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> "If we decide to not standardize are we a failure or a success as a
WG?"
[06:21:39] <mcr> . o O ( smart WG chairs set their milestones as "send to IESG", knowing that they can't control the rest )
[06:22:03] <francesca> uh, philosophical questions :)
[06:22:14] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Exactly :)
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[06:23:32] <Göran Selander> Francesca: would you be happier with: "The scope of the Working Group include how to use Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) a s a transport medium for certificate enrollment protocols"?
[06:24:41] <francesca> yes, but maybe that's not prescriptive enough for IESG.. :)
[06:26:14] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I'd be willing to try and see if the IESG lets it through.  Mostly we
tend to care about the line between what is not going to happen for
sure and what could be considered by the WG.
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[06:27:15] <francesca> maybe what i wanted was somtehing on the lines of "The Working Group will consider how to use Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) as a transport medium for certificate enrollment protocols, and standardize proposals such as EST and CMPv2 after evaluation by the WG"
But I'm ok with other formulations too, I was being nitpicking
[06:27:56] <Carsten Bormann> will examine... and standardize as needed
[06:28:13] <francesca> exactly Carsten
[06:28:37] <francesca> thanks for finding better words to my thoughts :)
[06:29:02] <Carsten Bormann> Demonstrating why you don't want to use Google docs to record consensus :-)
[06:29:32] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I think this one may not take the full allocated 10 minutes; now I
feel bad for being zealous about watching the clock for the previous
one.
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[06:31:39] <mcr> I think that I'm involved already.
[06:32:29] <francesca> I will review
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[06:32:57] <mcr> I will review.
[06:33:21] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Anyone who will review draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile, please
mention that (by draft name) here as well.
[06:33:38] <francesca> (mcr: ..it's the next I will survive)
[06:33:38] <mcr> I will review draft-selander-ace-coap-est-oscore-04
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[06:34:10] <mcr> (I won't review ace-group-oscore-* because they make my head hurt)
[06:35:20] <francesca> mcr: I will write a doc about how they fit with each other, how about that? will you read that doc then? :)
[06:35:34] <mcr> a roadmap document?  That would be good.
[06:35:56] <Christian Amsüss> happy to review anything that gives an overview of ACE documents :-)
[06:36:20] <francesca> It will have a lot of pictures!
[06:36:33] <mcr> Ben, did you say you were a bit colour blind?
[06:36:44] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I believe that I have normal color vision
[06:37:03] <mcr> so you see in all five primary colours? :-)
[06:37:25] <Jonathan Hammell> He just doesn't see the "u" in colours.
[06:37:29] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> red, green, blue, orange, and octarine, yes.
[06:38:23] <mcr> When I was a kid, they kept testing me, because there were these chairs in my grade two class which were really neither blue nor green depending upon the light.
[06:38:38] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> So, "the dress" but decades earlier?
[06:38:41] <mcr> Goran did a great job on the colouring.
[06:39:24] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> IIUC several east-asian languages have a single word that encompasses
blue and green (so, no distinction between them), which makes it
exciting to talk about those colors sometimes.
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[06:46:47] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> RFC 8366 vouchers are useful for more than just BRSKI :)
[06:47:03] <Olle Johansson> Do we have any known implementations of this?
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[06:48:17] <Olle Johansson> Great
[06:48:59] <Olle Johansson> Monday is ok :-)
[06:50:02] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I'll cancel the demo slot from the SAAG agenda
[06:51:18] <mcr> SZTP ses RFC8366.
[06:51:34] <Carsten Bormann> -v
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[06:52:26] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> s/ses/uses/
[06:52:56] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> (SZTP is RFC 8572)
[06:53:36] <mcr> Also they are looking at doing enrollment over RESTCONF.
[06:53:51] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Huh, interesting.
[06:53:58] <mcr> So one convergence would be to do it over CORECONF too.
[06:54:19] <mcr> which isn't EST, but more like CMP, and I'm trying to convince brski-async-enroll to do that: CMP over CORECONF.
[06:54:50] <mcr> there are some long emails and pull requests that I need to get in order on this topic.
[06:55:19] <mcr> But running proof of concept code would be even better.
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[06:57:04] <mcr> draft-ietf-netconf-trust-anchors-13 with draft-ietf-netconf-sztp-csr-01
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[06:57:46] <mcr> [it should all be in IOTOPS in my opinion. BUT]
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[06:59:45] <mcr> GOOD JOB Daniel!!!
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[07:00:02] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> See you in gather.town!
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[07:00:05] <francesca> thank you! bye
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[07:00:09] <Marco Tiloca> Thanks you all, bye!
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