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[10:51:02] <mglt> hi can you jeard
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[10:55:32] <francesca> minutes: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-108-ace?both
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[10:56:19] <Cigdem Sengul> hello everybody
[10:56:32] <marco.tiloca> Hi Cigdem!
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[10:56:58] <francesca> Hi Cigdem :)
[10:57:07] <jimsch1> Good morning all
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[10:57:16] <francesca> Hi Jim
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[10:57:21] <marco.tiloca> Morning Jim
[10:57:29] <francesca> mic check?
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[10:58:04] <Cigdem Sengul> Hello Jim.
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[10:58:34] <mglt> Meetecho: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf108/ace/
Jabber: xmpp:ace@jabber.ietf.org?join (this is part of the MeetEcho interface)
Etherpad: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-108-ace
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[10:59:02] <Bob Moskowitz> Morning Jim, you up before the Rooster...?
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[10:59:21] <jimsch1> Long before the rooster - it gets up in about 1.5 hours
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[10:59:49] <Bob Moskowitz> :)
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[11:07:30] <cabo> If you verbally point to some obscure URI (e.g., the OSCORE issue tracker), please put the link in the minutes.  Thanks.
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[11:07:53] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Carsten, you mean you are not religiously checking the OSCORE issue
tracker? ;)
[11:08:00] <francesca> Thank you Carsten good point: https://github.com/ace-wg/ace-oscore-profile/issues I am going to put it in the minutes as well
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[11:08:06] <cabo> Only when I have the URI...
[11:08:14] <cabo> Thanks
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[11:09:50] <mglt> francesca. do you have anything to say ?
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[11:10:10] <francesca> yes but I figured I would wait until the end of the presentation
[11:10:16] <mglt> ok
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[11:14:26] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Can we treat session continuation as an optimization, and require the
same token in order for continuation to succeed, but allow for a
non-continuation option for if the token has changed?  (Is it hard for
the client to know that its token has changed?)
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[11:14:58] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> (I haven't gotten to read up on MQTT at all yet)
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[11:22:43] <cabo> MQTT used to be the favorite protocol for the "what did this protocol get wrong" assignment
[11:23:28] <cabo> Haven't taught this class for a while
[11:23:35] <francesca> I like what Ben proposed (keep it as an optimization), given that this is an issue for vanilla MQTT
[11:23:44] <francesca> and not a sec issue
[11:24:08] <francesca> *nodding to what Jim says*
[11:29:21] <Bob Moskowitz> If I remember right MQTT had its origins in MQ from IBM that lifted it from our factory control system at Chrysler.  Enough steps and you got the MQTT kitchen sink.
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[11:31:58] <francesca> converging :)
[11:33:02] <francesca> (FYI trying to be more vocal on the chat on feedback for presenters, as we miss that during all virtual meetings)
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[11:33:28] <francesca> (as c.amsuess rightfully pointed out)
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[11:34:07] <cabo> francesca: I already gave my feedback :-), but +1 on your point
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[11:37:24] <Mike Jones> RFC 8747 registers the base set of CWT PoP confirmation claims
[11:37:35] <Mike Jones> Are there others that this document uses?
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[11:37:46] <jimsch1> But not hash for certificate and raw certificate
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[11:41:17] <cabo> 15 min behind schedule (but this was a necessary discussion)
[11:41:41] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Indeed.
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[11:45:30] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> cabo, that sounded like your cue
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[11:46:04] <jimsch1> I like #3 because it can be placed on both the root and each child of the root.
[11:50:03] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> [I'm going to drop and rejoin with a different audio setup; should be
back in a minute or two]
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[11:52:53] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> (no need to mic) I expect that if we keep "group name", "GROUPNAME",
and "group identifier", we'll have some directorate and/or IESG
reviewers express desire for names that are more different.
[11:52:58] <cabo> Would it be possible to rename things so only the group name is called a variation of group name
[11:53:06] <cabo> Yes
[11:53:30] <Randy Turner> Agree, the naming is ripe for confusion
[11:54:07] <cabo> So call it "OSCORE group identifier" always
[11:54:53] <jimsch1> The question then is group identifier a generic thing or only an OSCORE group comm thing
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[11:56:50] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> (I assume Carsten will speak up if getting 2.05 back from a PUT (vs.
GET) is weird, or if there's a PUT vs. POST distinction I'm missing.)
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[11:57:24] <jimsch1> in theory, POST creates and PUT updates.  THis should really be FETCH
[11:57:32] <cabo> I will speak up later...
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[11:58:47] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I seem to have forgotten about FETCH, thanks.
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[12:01:57] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Rekeying the whole group can get expensive, but with an appropriate
disclaimer about that, Jim's proposal seems reasonable to me.
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[12:06:28] <cabo> nit: You may want to start at 0
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[12:09:56] <jimsch1> Let's not bikeshed on the name right now
[12:10:30] <cabo> core. Are kind of "official" by the reg guidelines
[12:10:46] <cabo> Are we using core.os for oscore already?
[12:11:06] <francesca> no, we don't register any other resource type right now
[12:11:08] <marco.tiloca> Thanks
[12:11:16] <francesca> in ace-key-groupcomm we register ace.group for If
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[12:13:06] <cabo> What is the relation to EST?
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[12:13:36] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> "similar, but different"
[12:13:42] <cabo> OK
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[12:16:55] <cabo> ACE and CoRE are a bit of a toss
[12:17:08] <jimsch1> Yes - but ACE is probably faster
[12:17:24] <cabo> Fine
[12:17:38] <cabo> Just wanted to help with not rechartering
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[12:17:48] <Robin Wilton> @cabo That may not mean what you think, in colloquial English o_O
[12:18:03] <cabo> :-)
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[12:18:39] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Closing is a great way to not recharter, if that's the only goal...
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[12:21:04] <francesca> would CoRE need to recharter?
[12:21:13] <francesca> (to adopt it)
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[12:28:11] <francesca> about dynamic permissions is it too specific to say "these permissions are linked to the resource returned in Location-Path+Location-Query"?
[12:28:57] <francesca> if it needs to return them, obviously
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[12:29:41] <francesca> I guess my comment is related to what Ben just commented on (who needs this - only RS?)
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[12:30:53] <cabo> francesca: I think we could make that change.
[12:33:23] <jimsch1> Would need to think about things like Pub-Sub where the administrator can create the topic - and that would be dynamic, but a second resource is created at the same time which is where topics are published.  THis is not returned in location-* and so deciding on permissions for that resource would be interesting
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[12:35:17] <cabo> FYI, over in RATS there just was discussion whether UCCS should be here or in RATS
[12:35:36] <francesca> yes, that was why I wondered if that was too specific... But I think it needs to be more precise than "resource created as a result of an operation"
[12:35:41] <jimsch1> Expand UCCS please
[12:35:54] <cabo> Unprotected CWT claims set
[12:36:02] <jimsch1> Oh yes - I remember that now
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[12:41:37] <francesca> and say hi to friends! :)
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[12:42:03] <jimsch1> gather.town
[12:42:04] <francesca> https://gather.town/z6N2SDxHebMdDAfo/IETF-108
[12:42:05] <marco.tiloca> https://ietf.gather.town/z6N2SDxHebMdDAfo/IETF-108
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[12:42:58] <francesca> thank you for today!
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[12:43:20] <marco.tiloca> Thank you all, talk to you soon
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[12:43:33] <Cigdem Sengul> bye thanks
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[13:41:49] <c.amsuess> not directly related to current ace work, but maybe someone around can help me with the history: skipping around through various documents, i found that NOOB (nimble out-of-band authentication) looks like something that'd be nice to have in an ACE environment, but the only link between them is the long-abandoned draft-marin-ace-wg-coap-eap-06.
[13:41:59] <c.amsuess> is there something that obsoleted that?
[13:43:30] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> NOOB itself is making its way through EMU, IIRC, though we could pick
it up after the work in EMU finishes
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[14:24:17] <c.amsuess> is there any link currently between the EAP and the ACE ecosystem?
[14:24:29] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I don't think so
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