IETF
6tsch@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, July 30, 2013< ^ >
twatteyne has set the subject to: 6TSCH BoF @ IETF 87 Berlin
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[13:16:00] <Michael Richardson> hi.
[13:16:10] <Michael Richardson> did they give you cookies just now?
[13:16:58] <guillaumegaillard> hi. cookies were there from half pas two
[13:17:04] <guillaumegaillard> no ?
[13:17:05] <Pieter De Mil> Remote cookies?
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[13:20:34] <Guillaume Gaillard> it starts
[13:21:21] <Guillaume Gaillard> administrativia
[13:21:30] <abdussalam.baryun> hello all
[13:21:50] <Pieter De Mil> hi
[13:22:04] <Guillaume Gaillard> note well
[13:22:17] <Ted Lemon> We had cookies and not cake, yes.
[13:22:35] <Guillaume Gaillard> 40 min problem statements
[13:22:46] <Guillaume Gaillard> clarifiing questions 10 min
[13:22:55] <Guillaume Gaillard> charter discussion 20 min
[13:22:59] <Guillaume Gaillard> questions
[13:23:30] <Guillaume Gaillard> IT/OT network convergence
[13:23:55] <Guillaume Gaillard> operational / information Tecnology
[13:24:37] <Ted Lemon> Is there an analogy to be drawn between best-effort scheduling and real-time scheduling in operating system kernels?
[13:26:04] <Guillaume Gaillard> what is IEEE802.15.4E TSCH
[13:26:04] <Pieter De Mil> it will be explained now
[13:26:10] <Guillaume Gaillard> Maria Rita Pallatella
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[13:26:56] <Guillaume Gaillard> /palattella
[13:27:25] <Michael Richardson> what is the official pronounciation, other than "6-Tee-Ess-See-atch" again?
[13:27:38] <Pieter De Mil> sixtus
[13:27:43] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide IEEE802.15.4 PHY
[13:28:40] <lmontini@cisco.com> could Maria Rita talk a bit further from the mic? TIA
[13:28:49] <Michael Richardson> +1 on mic.
[13:28:56] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide TSCH SChedule
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[13:29:20] <Ted Lemon> can you hear Mariarita?
[13:29:28] <lmontini@cisco.com> perfect
[13:29:31] <lmontini@cisco.com> thx
[13:29:32] <abdussalam.baryun> yes ok
[13:29:34] <Ted Lemon> np
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[13:29:56] <Michael Richardson> use of ASN= on slide "Channel Hopping" might confuse some people.  I assume it does not mean Autonomous System Number.  
[13:30:28] <twatteyne> I means "Absolute Slot Number"
[13:30:34] <Guillaume Gaillard> Time synchronization
[13:31:15] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide channel hopping
[13:31:59] <twatteyne> Michael, 6TSCH is pronounced "sixtus"
[13:32:58] <Michael Richardson> I don't know how "tsch" becomes "tus", but I'll try to get it right. Or is that a German "S"?
[13:32:59] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide tsch schedule 2
[13:33:23] <Ted Lemon> This is really cool.
[13:33:38] <Pieter De Mil> :-)
[13:33:42] <Michael Richardson> sixtu_{\chi} ?
[13:33:49] <marc.blanchet.qc> AD convinced. good start ;-)
[13:34:21] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide deterministic networking
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[13:35:11] <Michael Richardson> and they also have a logo already too :-)
[13:37:48] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide Proven Technology
[13:38:03] <Guillaume Gaillard> WirelessHart (2007)
[13:38:14] <Guillaume Gaillard> ISA 100.11a (2008)
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[13:39:16] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide new apps
[13:39:55] <Guillaume Gaillard> control loops, umbrella networks, energy harvesting, widespread monitoring
[13:40:08] <Michael Richardson> so, you get a group of people together, they all face different directions (according to the deterministic schedule).  Each says, "6tsch" with a strong german S (e.g. must spit the S). If the schedule is done right, nobody gets spit on.
[13:40:42] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide summary
[13:41:05] <Ted Lemon> What's a "MAC Amendment?"
[13:41:21] <Guillaume Gaillard> low power, high reliability, deterministic, proven techno, new apps, IT/OT convergence
[13:41:38] <Guillaume Gaillard> a mode
[13:41:38] <Pieter De Mil> 15.4e is added to the 802.15.4-2006 standard
[13:41:52] <Guillaume Gaillard> what its missing part
[13:41:55] <Ted Lemon> So it's basically an amendment, from our perspective.
[13:42:02] <Pieter De Mil> So it's compatible with the 802.15.4-2006 PHY radios
[13:42:07] <Guillaume Gaillard> speaking xavi Vilajosana
[13:42:24] <Guillaume Gaillard> what is our objective ?
[13:43:00] <Guillaume Gaillard> Missing IETF architecture and related protocol adjustement/specification
[13:43:14] <Ted Lemon> Right, the point is that for the non-IEEE person, saying "MAC amendment" makes that less clear because we don't know what a "MAC" is.
[13:43:18] <Guillaume Gaillard> building blocks already exists
[13:43:21] <twatteyne> "MAC amendment" because it amends the MAC side of the IEEE802.15.4-2011 standard. 15.4e can be seen as a "software update", but does not redefine the PHY layer (i.e. you can use the same radios)
[13:43:58] <twatteyne> MAC=Medium Access Control
[13:44:01] <Ted Lemon> Saying "MAC" doesn't convey that point.   I don't mean to be a pain, just giving you a little editorial advice.   It was clear from the slides that 15.4e was a software update.
[13:44:02] <Pieter De Mil> MAC = Medium Access Control
[13:44:04] <Guillaume Gaillard> out of scope slide
[13:44:09] <abdussalam.baryun> the last presented is it related to draft-watteyne-6tsch-tsch-lln-context?
[13:44:26] <marc.blanchet.qc> s/out of scope/out of scope in IEEE 802.15.4e/
[13:44:36] <marc.blanchet.qc> i.e.: what is missing in 15.4e
[13:44:51] <Guillaume Gaillard> ok
[13:45:02] <marc.blanchet.qc> work to do not done in 15.4e
[13:45:12] <twatteyne> the information in the part presented by Maria Rita is written down in draft-watteyne-6tsch-tsch-lln-context, indeed
[13:45:35] <abdussalam.baryun> yes
[13:45:45] <abdussalam.baryun> thankx
[13:46:18] <twatteyne> by "missing", Xavi means "what is out of scope of IEEE802.15.4e but still needed to run a network"
[13:46:26] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide "where the blocks come from"
[13:46:43] <Michael Richardson> Ted, for some devices, it's a software change in an auxiliary processor which is not updateable.  Not all, just some.
[13:47:01] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide Missing Blocks
[13:47:19] <Ted Lemon> I get what it means.   The point I am making is that when you say "MAC" I think "802.1 station address."
[13:47:26] <Ted Lemon> And so saying MAC makes the point less clear.
[13:47:54] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide schedule computation
[13:48:02] <Michael Richardson> ah. yes, MAC!=EUI48 here.
[13:48:11] <Ted Lemon> :)
[13:48:13] <twatteyne> Ted, that makes sense, thanks for the advice. MAC indeed has many definitions, in this case, it could be replaced by link technology
[13:48:48] <Michael Richardson> [I-D.phinney-roll-rpl-industrial-applicability] is now draft-ietf-roll-rpl-industrial-applicability-00.
[13:49:00] <Michael Richardson> A question I have is whether it would make sense to move that document into 6tsch.
[13:49:23] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide RPL on TSCH
[13:49:57] <Guillaume Gaillard> "the matching problem"
[13:51:10] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide Tunneling and QoS
[13:51:30] <Guillaume Gaillard> Slide Backbone Operation
[13:52:58] <Guillaume Gaillard> Part "Why is this a problem" with Alfriedo Grieco
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[13:54:59] <Guillaume Gaillard> speaking Thomas Watteyne
[13:55:12] <Guillaume Gaillard> status of 6TSCH group
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[13:56:19] <Guillaume Gaillard> bitbucket.org/6tsch
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[13:56:56] <Guillaume Gaillard> speaking Pascal Thubert
[13:57:09] <Guillaume Gaillard> draft 6tsch architecture
[13:58:00] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide requirements
[13:58:25] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide architecture scope
[13:59:28] <Guillaume Gaillard> LLN : Low power, Lossy Networks
[14:00:16] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide Centralized vs Distributed routing
[14:01:02] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide best effort routing
[14:01:49] <Guillaume Gaillard> slide track Switching in Transport mode
[14:02:16] <Guillaume Gaillard> and in tunnel mode
[14:02:37] <Guillaume Gaillard> 6LoWPAN fragment forwarding
[14:03:48] <Guillaume Gaillard> clarifying questions ?
[14:04:17] <Guillaume Gaillard> I can relay
[14:05:02] <Floris> what is this 6lowpan fragment forwarding? afaik all fragments are typically reassembled at every hop? if mesh under routing is used, 6lowpan defines an additional header that is attached to every fragment for routing purposes
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[14:08:23] <Guillaume Gaillard> is this answer the question ?
[14:08:59] <Michael Richardson> Floris, the idea is that you could forward the 6lowpan fragments, as if it a kind of partial-mesh-under.
[14:09:32] <Michael Richardson> one could think of 6tsch as layer-3 mesh creation followed by PCE-computed mesh-under.
[14:10:00] <Guillaume Gaillard> Floris ?
[14:10:44] <Floris> Think I got it, thx :)
[14:13:44] <abdussalam.baryun> Q for Pascal related to slides: regarding centralised and distributed routing, will it be worked in the group. I think it is difficult for 6tsch to have both to syncronise, how can it be done, is it discussed in the draft?
[14:14:14] <Ted Lemon> Didn't he already say the working group was going to use RPL and not roll their own?
[14:15:30] <abdussalam.baryun> said using RPL to do both and find a way for that?
[14:15:37] <Michael Richardson> which slide?
[14:15:44] <Ted Lemon> Architecture Scope
[14:15:45] <Ted Lemon> sorry
[14:16:39] <abdussalam.baryun> slide: Centralized vs. Distributed routing
[14:17:03] <Michael Richardson> if they are using RPL, they certainly could have a DODAG that spanned multiple BBR, and that linked multiple LLN "areas".   That would certainly work.
[14:17:06] <Ted Lemon> maybe you should read the draft… :)
[14:17:22] <Michael Richardson> er, s/"if they are"/"as they are"/
[14:18:35] <Michael Richardson> but, the calculated schedule would be for a single area at a time, and there would be no "MPLS"-like stuff across the backbone, imho.
[14:19:30] <Guillaume Gaillard> dominique Barthel speaking
[14:19:36] <Guillaume Gaillard> description of the WG
[14:19:39] <Ted Lemon> Something like reviewing documents.
[14:19:43] <Ted Lemon> oops
[14:20:51] <Guillaume Gaillard> a broad comunity ...
[14:21:00] <Guillaume Gaillard> community
[14:22:17] <Guillaume Gaillard> that will deliver multiple implem, multiple OSes and environments
[14:23:08] <Guillaume Gaillard> Slide Description of Working Group
[14:23:23] <Ted Lemon> Nice work on the slides, BTW.
[14:23:23] <Guillaume Gaillard> proposal
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[14:24:50] <Michael Richardson> I think it is the most together BOF effort ever....
[14:25:10] <Lars> is it me or does this approach look pretty heavyweight for LLN nodes?
[14:25:17] <Lars> i mean, rsvp?
[14:25:19] <Lars> really?
[14:26:22] <Guillaume Gaillard> speaking Raghuram Sudhaakar
[14:26:25] <Guillaume Gaillard> Work Items
[14:26:54] <Guillaume Gaillard> Overview of WI
[14:27:12] <abdussalam.baryun> @ Lars, I think too
[14:28:30] <Ted Lemon> Lars, a primary feature of RSVP is its scalability!
[14:28:55] <abdussalam.baryun> which slide presented now
[14:28:56] <Ted Lemon> (I'm quoting the isi presentation on RSVP)
[14:28:57] <Lars> rsvp has primary features?
[14:29:11] <Guillaume Gaillard> still Overview
[14:29:51] <Guillaume Gaillard> 1 6top spec. 2 Centralised routes. 3 distributed. 4 minimal config. 5 6tsch archi
[14:30:11] <Guillaume Gaillard> 6. TSCH overview
[14:30:23] <Michael Richardson> RSVP/NSIS is one way to extract the forwarding path that the RPL DODAG has calculated. It might not be the only way.
[14:30:27] <Ted Lemon> that's a fun typo
[14:30:33] <Guillaume Gaillard> 7. 6TSCH security
[14:31:38] <Guillaume Gaillard> Pascal speaking
[14:31:52] <Guillaume Gaillard> External work to other WG
[14:33:17] <Guillaume Gaillard> BOF question : who is willing to edit docs, comments,..
[14:33:25] <Guillaume Gaillard> Questions, remarks ?
[14:34:02] <Guillaume Gaillard> dreft charter on bitbucket
[14:34:13] <Guillaume Gaillard> emmanuel bicceli, inria
[14:34:54] <Guillaume Gaillard> much work. advise : prioritize task
[14:35:20] <Guillaume Gaillard> (cf 7 Work Item list)
[14:35:28] <abdussalam.baryun> the chater seems ok
[14:35:56] <Guillaume Gaillard> footprint on constrained ?
[14:36:11] <Guillaume Gaillard> rsvp ?
[14:36:36] <Pieter De Mil> ZigBee needs 100K...?
[14:37:15] <Guillaume Gaillard> what does deterministic means
[14:37:17] <Guillaume Gaillard> ?
[14:39:04] <Guillaume Gaillard> benedict : node resources, flash, ram ? dificulty.
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[14:40:18] <Michael Richardson> and there are (mini?)controllers which have much more.
[14:40:29] <Guillaume Gaillard> carsten Bormann : Lwig doc
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[14:41:56] <Floris> that would be http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lwig-terminology iirc
[14:42:10] <abdussalam.baryun> my Qs was postpone
[14:42:20] <Guillaume Gaillard> bof questions
[14:42:23] <abdussalam.baryun> not answered
[14:42:33] <Pieter De Mil> hmm
[14:42:41] <Géraldine Texier> hmmm
[14:42:42] <Michael Richardson> yes.
[14:42:45] <abdussalam.baryun> yes
[14:42:48] <Pieter De Mil> it was a yes hmm
[14:43:00] <abdussalam.baryun> yes
[14:43:06] <Michael Richardson> due to delay, in jabber, you can't really humm, because by the time you do, the question has changed :-)
[14:43:45] <abdussalam.baryun> how many in the room?
[14:43:55] <abdussalam.baryun> yes
[14:43:56] <Géraldine Texier> yes
[14:44:07] <Pieter De Mil> :-D
[14:44:17] <Pieter De Mil> goals are clear
[14:44:39] <Guillaume Gaillard> 130 ?
[14:44:52] <Guillaume Gaillard> (people in the room)
[14:45:09] <abdussalam.baryun> voices have different power than hands
[14:45:23] <Pieter De Mil> we want deterministic hands
[14:45:26] <abdussalam.baryun> we work with low power, so hands is prefered
[14:45:54] <Pieter De Mil> I am willing to edit, implement
[14:46:05] <Ted Lemon> I'm stuck reading them… :)
[14:46:06] <Michael Richardson> I will comment/review.
[14:46:11] <abdussalam.baryun> no still need time
[14:46:28] <Géraldine Texier> I intent to contribute
[14:46:29] <Michael Richardson> if someone wants me to implement, they should contact me directly :-)
[14:46:31] <abdussalam.baryun> I will review and comment
[14:47:40] <abdussalam.baryun> If the question stated done on jaber then my answers can be understood
[14:48:18] <abdussalam.baryun> Are chairs counting the jaber participants!!
[14:48:39] <Ted Lemon> I don't think the numbers make a huge difference, but yes, I certainly noticed.
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[14:49:20] <Pieter De Mil> who else?
[14:49:30] <Ted Lemon> If not you, then who?   If not now, then when?
[14:49:31] <Ted Lemon> :)
[14:49:32] <Pieter De Mil> IETF is the right place
[14:49:57] <abdussalam.baryun> always the right place  :-)
[14:50:11] <Michael Richardson> What Pascal said. "Use RPL" could be as meaningless as "Use IPsec" out there.
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[14:51:27] <abdussalam.baryun> ok thanks, bye
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[14:51:47] <Guillaume Gaillard> ok, sorry if questions unanswered
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[14:51:58] <Géraldine Texier> thanks
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