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[08:49:07] <Ole Trøan> /topic IETF 107 6man Interim
[08:50:05] Ole Trøan has set the subject to: IETF107 - 6man interim
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[14:02:05] <Bob Hinden> Good morning (or where ever you are)!
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[14:22:54] <Joel Halpern> Etherpad: https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/notes-ietf-107-6man
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[14:23:51] <evyncke@cisco.com> @Bob: you mean 'good afternoon' :-)
[14:25:06] <Ole Trøan> Anyone up for Jabber scribing?
[14:25:42] <Joel Halpern> Ole, do you mean specifically relaying (mic) quesitons from the jabber to the webex?
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[14:27:09] <Ole Trøan> Well, good question. It was more _if_ anything was required to be relayed. From side discussions. Or comments that needed attention urgently...
[14:27:24] <Ole Trøan> The role of the jabber scribe in a virtual meeting is yet to be learned. ;-)
[14:27:41] <Ole Trøan> Joel, if you want to poke us, if you see anything needing attention that would be great!
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[14:28:56] <Joel Halpern> Okay.  I will relay any (mic) questions, and poke the chairs if something comes up here that needs attention.  (Which I doubt.)
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[14:29:05] <Ole Trøan> Thanks Joel!
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[14:29:15] <Ole Trøan> we will be watching the jabber room as well...
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[14:30:52] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> excuse, the presentation material (I cant copy-paste it from the webex screen, it's not text, it's pixels)
[14:31:03] <Ole Trøan> correct.
[14:31:05] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> (where is the presentation material URL?)
[14:31:10] <Ole Trøan> in the agenda
[14:31:42] <evyncke@cisco.com> It is an interim and not IETF-107 ;-)
[14:31:50] <Joel Halpern> Presentation material is at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2020-6man-01/session/6man
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[14:31:59] <evyncke@cisco.com> Good idea for the speaker's video
[14:32:41] <Joel Halpern> Session overview at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2020-6man-01/session/6man
[14:32:54] <Joel Halpern> Agenda at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-interim-2020-6man-01-6man-01/
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[14:37:03] <Tim Chown> test
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[14:37:43] <Warren Kumari> Hullo Tim :-)
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[14:39:42] <Ole Trøan> Wonder if there is a way to get rid of the "join" beep in webex
[14:40:02] <John Scudder> There definitely is. I turned it off for our IDR meeting yesterday.
[14:40:07] <evyncke@cisco.com> Annoying indeed... this is part of the webex setup... it looks like this was not done
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[14:40:12] <John Scudder> But I did it when setting the meeting up.
[14:40:28] <Ole Trøan> Let's blame Bob then. ;-)
[14:40:53] <John Scudder> You might be able to do it still, but you'd have to spend your time messing about with the WebEx dashboard instead of paying attention to your meeting. :-/
[14:41:14] <evyncke@cisco.com> AFAIK MLD snooping does not really work for ff02:: groups
[14:41:59] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> Must the host join a mc group (all-routers) before sending an NA to it?
[14:42:11] <Ole Trøan> no
[14:42:13] <evyncke@cisco.com> no
[14:42:17] <evyncke@cisco.com> only receivers
[14:42:22] <evyncke@cisco.com> = group members
[14:42:33] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> any senders can send to mc groups then, they could spam them
[14:43:10] <ek> there's no change in that with this proposal
[14:43:39] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> true
[14:45:57] <Warren Kumari> Just a note that it would be awesome if this could be implemented while actually *decreasing* multicast, not just keeping it the same — multicast on WiFi really does cause issues….
[14:46:31] <evyncke@cisco.com> specially when the packet is critical
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[14:46:55] <Ole Trøan> There are many ways of limiting multicast on wifi
[14:47:43] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> one could also send NA to all-nodes (instead of all-routers) and then we interpret that Node and Routers and Host they way one likes to
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[14:48:05] <Barbara Stark> Hi everyone. I was late joining and starting note-taking. Did I miss anything exciting (note-worthy) during chair slides?
[14:48:21] <Ole Trøan> Barbara, only the chair's very eloquent introduction
[14:48:42] <Barbara Stark> So Bob did this intro?
[14:48:45] <Warren Kumari> @Ole — yes, but decreasing them at L3 is also important… https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems/
[14:48:54] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> (It was noted this is first interim since more than 20 years, last in Grenoble(?) maybe; and that this is the first virtual meeting.)
[14:50:41] <evyncke@cisco.com> Ole: please, request to put a '+q' in the webex chat to go in the queue ;-)
[14:51:31] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> ideally, a ProblStmt is before a Solution
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[14:53:48] <Warren Kumari> Wow, that wa srambling...
[14:54:08] <behcet> do someone have a link to the Etherpad?
[14:54:17] <dhruvdhody> https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/notes-ietf-107-6man
[14:54:19] <Warren Kumari> https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/notes-ietf-107-6man
[14:55:08] <evyncke@cisco.com> Forwarding the WGLC to V6OPS would be good
[14:55:35] <Ole Trøan> Yep, and/or we can do both as cross wg WGLCs
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[14:56:34] <Warren Kumari> Bob is right that we often don't publish use cases and requirements documents, but my **personal** view is that they are often / usually really useful....
[14:57:17] <sureshk@jabber.org> @Warren: Could be interesting to fold in the support document into the main one if the timing is right
[14:57:25] <sureshk@jabber.org> like in this case
[14:57:57] <evyncke@cisco.com> TEMP_VALID_LIFETIME to 2 days... limiting the number of addresses to 2 ? Some OS (iOS ?) generate(d) a new temp address on each and every sleep->awake transition
[14:57:58] <Ole Trøan> I think we didn't want the here are the <n> ways to solve the problem exploration in the "specification" document.
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[14:59:46] <sureshk@jabber.org> @ole: that's what Appendices are for :-)
[14:59:59] <Warren Kumari> When Pointy Haired Boss comes along and says "Go implement $foo", the first thing most people want to know is "What is $foo supposed to be used for? Will it fit in my network?!" (actually, probably the *first* thing is "Why the hell does PHB think he's in a position to make any sort of technical decision?!", but you get the point…)
[15:00:20] <aretana> +1 Suresh (personal opinion)
[15:00:22] <Barbara Stark> Warren Kumari: I didn't hear all of what you said about Jen's drafts. Suffering audio drop-outs. Can you summarize for me to paste into the notes?
[15:01:12] <Joel Halpern> @evyncke - will you be putting yourself in the queue to raise the issue about the number of addresses?
[15:01:32] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> sorry, about current presentation: the privacy of addresses should not be only that of the IID.  It should be that of the prefix as well, and moreover, and I know its a stretch, that of the plen.
[15:02:13] <behcet> @warren Thanks :)
[15:02:15] <Warren Kumari> This problem was originally raised / discussed in V6OPs. V6OPS (note: in *my* view) thought it was a real issue, and discussed is they could solve it, but then decided that 6MAN was the right place to do it, and hopefully quickly….. so, v6ops is supportive of gettin' this done… *
[15:02:16] <evyncke@cisco.com> @Joel no
[15:02:37] <evyncke@cisco.com> as I am unusure whether it is still the case :-( I wil check at hole with iPad and come back to Fernando
[15:03:07] <Joel Halpern> @evyncke okay.
[15:04:32] <Tim Chown> anyone know where the option to turn of the beeping is in Adium?
[15:04:55] <evyncke@cisco.com> The beep are from webex :-(
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[15:05:15] <Bob Hinden> Same question for webex :-)
[15:05:51] <Ole Trøan> Every time you hear a beep it's bottom's up
[15:06:30] <Bob Hinden> I turned off entry and exit tones, maybe that will help, not sure if it is for the whole session or just me.
[15:07:34] <ek> changing the prefix more frequently is a separable problem
[15:08:09] <Ole Trøan> taking the value out of end to end communication too...
[15:08:17] <Ole Trøan> unless we change the world and implement a session layer...
[15:08:24] <Ole Trøan> and a quick rendevouz mechanism
[15:08:30] <evyncke@cisco.com> MTCP & MIPv6 ;-)
[15:08:40] <evyncke@cisco.com> s/MTCP/MPTCP/
[15:08:43] <ek> it's possible to have 2 prefixes live at the same time and transition from one to the other
[15:08:47] <ek> on a rolling basis
[15:09:25] <ek> besides, with MASQUE all your internetz will be via a QUIC SOCKS proxy 😛
[15:09:45] <evyncke@cisco.com> Carnival time :-)
[15:10:13] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> "besides, with MASQUE all your internetz will be via a QUIC SOCKS proxy 😛" - :-) :-)
[15:10:52] <Ole Trøan> @ek MHMP is difficult to get right though... we've tried for 20 years, and still doesn't work
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[15:12:13] <ek> it requires a non-trivial amount of coordination
[15:12:55] <ek> you need 2 prefixes from the upstream first, and it gets more complicated from there
[15:13:02] <ek> I agree
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[15:13:37] <Ole Trøan> I did try to run like that for a year... a lot less robust than single prefix...
[15:13:43] <evyncke@cisco.com> PvD and source address dependent routing can help. But, the latter document is slowly dying :(
[15:14:02] <Ole Trøan> And the first one should? ;-)
[15:14:18] <Barbara Stark> There is no "Logan" on the blue sheet, and no last name on WebEx. Could Logan please be entered on blue sheet?
[15:14:19] <ek> pvd is in rfc-editor, IIRC
[15:14:27] <evyncke@cisco.com> @Ole, I heard nothing ;-)
[15:14:34] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> wiht p2p links like in cellular links an attacker could also put :: on an interface - if something bad happens it's the operator who had the real GUA address, not the attacker :-)
[15:14:44] <Ole Trøan> @Barbara: Yes, he is "gnukid1" on webex.
[15:14:45] behcet joins the room
[15:15:24] <Joel Halpern> @Barbara, Logan is in the webex as gnukid1.
[15:16:29] <Barbara Stark> Ole Trøan: Yes, but that wasn't useful for notes. But Logan has now put himself on the blue sheet. All is well. :)
[15:20:31] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> (73 in webex, 50 on bluesheet... (approx.))
[15:20:50] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> (30 in jabber, approx.)
[15:21:09] <Ole Trøan> Thanks Alex, I will remind people again.
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[15:25:06] <ek> this slide deck could use slide numbers (as all decks)
[15:26:07] <Ole Trøan> yes, we forgot to remind presenters about that...
[15:26:26] <ek> I think the answer is: nothing is required to be externally visible
[15:26:33] <Jen_aka_Furry> My one hd slide numbers ;-P
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[15:26:46] <Jen_aka_Furry> (at least I remember adding themm…)
[15:26:58] <Ole Trøan> @jen: Yes, ice cream in the mail!
[15:27:23] <Warren Kumari> I agree with Joel…. 'tis unclear to me as well...
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[15:28:22] <Jen_aka_Furry> Ole: oh I'm afraid you can not ship food to Au! ;(
[15:29:06] <Joel Halpern> @Warren Thanks.
[15:29:09] <John Scudder> Ah, but can food be shipped internally within .au? Because then it's just a small matter of ordering.
[15:29:32] <ketant> @Joel, would the pseudocode be clearer if the pseudocode did .... s/to the OAM process/out from the router via a telemetry channel/ ... something on that lines?
[15:30:13] <Joel Halpern> @ek - if nothing is required to be externally visible, then they need to explain why they need a bit.  Maybe there is a reason.  But it is not spelled out.
[15:30:45] <ek> well, they want a bit to express the intent of the sender
[15:30:54] <ek> "track this packet"
[15:31:04] <Joel Halpern> @ketant - If the requirement is to copy the packet externally, then yes, that would be clearer.  However, the illustrations do not align with that requirement.
[15:31:06] <ek> whatever the local definition of "track" is
[15:31:36] <Ole Trøan> OK, sounds like Joel, Zafar and Greg should sit down and figure this one out.
[15:32:45] <Joel Halpern> @ek - It seeems likely that you want different processing of the punted copy than of the original.  I presume, at the simplest, that the punted copy must not be natively forwarded.  But if I send an IP packet to a control processor, without some normative requirement for different processing, control will look at the SRH and forward the packet.  Pretty sure that is not the goal.
[15:35:19] <Joel Halpern> @ole - as I said, I am happy to talk via whatever channel the authors would like to resolve this.  
[15:35:24] <ketant> @Joel, my reading was that it was simply to do a telemetry of the packet out of the node doing the SRH processing (i.e. at segment endpoints). But would let Zafar/authors clarify.
[15:36:03] <ketant> in the meanwhile the original packet is processed and continues towards the destination
[15:36:04] <Joel Halpern> @ketant - the ping and traceroute illustrations suggest something different.  If you are correct about what is wanted, then we can write text making that clear.
[15:37:29] <ketant> @Joel, I don't believe O-bit is necessary or required for ping and traceroute operations. They seemed orthogonal to me. Was your question of what happens if O-bit was also set on a ping request?
[15:40:42] <Joel Halpern> @ketant,6.1.2 shows setting the O bit in a PING case.
[15:42:42] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> (some times when I want to 'mark' packets I set their flow labels, not the DO neither the HbH... but others might do differently)
[15:42:53] <evyncke@cisco.com> Hummm using a full IPv6 ext hdr to transport 2 bits... It reminds me using a huge Appolo 11 to send 2 men to the Moon
[15:44:06] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> FLow Identification sounds also as flow label...
[15:44:31] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> I have not read the drag.
[15:44:32] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> draft
[15:46:03] <ketant> @Joel, thanks for clarifying. I believe these aspects can be fixed/addressed in the text. I'll let Zafar/authors follow-up on this. I am sure they will go through our jabber as well :-)
[15:48:56] <evyncke@cisco.com> Ole can you mute Musa Stephen (noise in abackground)
[15:49:58] <Ole Trøan> Muted (by Bob)
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[15:59:12] <evyncke@cisco.com> Fred's voice is chopped for me :-(
[15:59:21] <Ole Trøan> Sounds good here.
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[16:06:21] <Ole Trøan> So the premise here is that you are pre-configured with the mobile prefix? So you can generate an LLA?
[16:06:39] <ek> the /56 is stamped on the plane, yes
[16:06:51] <ek> preallocated to it by ICAO
[16:06:59] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> so MN cant have 5 hextets
[16:07:06] <Ole Trøan> But then why the IPv4 compatible?
[16:07:39] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> MNP cant be 5 hextets
[16:07:52] <ek> the v4 stuff escapes me, yeah
[16:08:37] <Ole Trøan> Aren't there security issues with the prefix registration?
[16:09:29] <evyncke@cisco.com> No clue as well for the IPv4.
[16:10:11] <evyncke@cisco.com> But, already all planes (including my small Cessna 4 seat -- rental) has its unique ID (24 or 32 bits I do not remember) worldwide, the famous 'transponder'
[16:10:19] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> link quality from 0 to 15 ok - it was an IETF email list abou tlink-layer quality evaluation, common criteria - but is it a linear scale?
[16:11:06] <evyncke@cisco.com> AFAIK The trick is not it is not really QoS to gain 10 msec but rather to switch from WiFi at airport to 4G when not too high to VHF when cruising to satellite over the water with different latency, bandwidth, cost, ...
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[16:11:25] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> sounds reasonable
[16:12:11] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> earlier slide said architecture MSE - AR with encapsulaiton, à la Proxy Mobile IP; but now we say Route Injection?  I thought these two were alternatives.
[16:12:53] <Ole Trøan> I think encapsulation was only used for the MTU frag/reass solution?
[16:13:28] <evyncke@cisco.com> Ole, microphone is also opened for chairs ;-)
[16:13:42] <ek> if we remove the MTU problem from consideration, couldn't this just be a regular router talking on multiple interfaces?
[16:14:00] <Ole Trøan> unequal ECMP?
[16:14:18] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> are planes drones and vice versa, and if yes is DRIP Drone ID  Protocol of WG of IETF, relevant here.
[16:14:31] <ek> slide 11: registering links without any fate-sharing to show they're actually up?
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[16:17:55] <ek> using more of fe80::/10?
[16:18:53] <behcet> my question is why do they need /65?
[16:20:18] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> "my question is why do they need /65?
" - if there is a SLAAC that works with /65 (ongoing work, there is a draft on github), then that /65 is appropriate.
[16:21:19] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> I meant it might be appropriate to use a /65 with SLAAC in a plane (or in a car, or in an ambulance with new respirators to be in today context)
[16:21:42] <ek> they don't need /65
[16:21:59] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> why they dont need /65?
[16:22:06] <ek> my reading of that statement on the slides was that they had a plan to adapt if necessary
[16:23:21] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> I think the example of /32 and /56 are just examples.
[16:23:43] <evyncke@cisco.com> OK for me to run slightly over
[16:26:11] <behcet> Audio is gone
[16:26:24] <John Scudder> Fine here.
[16:28:34] <ek> Is there anything deep in the specs that prevents a router that would advertise 2 PIOs from alternatively sending 1 RA with 2PIOs and 2 RAs each with one of the PIOs?
[16:29:05] <ek> I thought hosts are required to synthesize all RAs regardless of how the information is split
[16:29:14] <Ole Trøan> I think that would be within spec yes.
[16:29:49] <evyncke@cisco.com> This is indeed the way I read the spec (and the PvD option relies on this)
[16:30:13] <Ole Trøan> I think we need to review this in excruciating detail to ensure we don't make the protocol more brittle
[16:30:22] <ek> +1
[16:30:23] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> " Is there anything deep in the specs that prevents a router that would advertise 2 PIOs from alternatively sending 1 RA with 2PIOs and 2 RAs each with one of the PIOs?" - not from what I know.  But the RA implems I know cant do that; a router sends always the same kind of RA, cant modify unless change the config file and restart daemon.
[16:30:34] <evyncke@cisco.com> @Ole: I am afraid that we have no choice
[16:30:41] <evyncke@cisco.com> @Ole: but to review
[16:31:23] <ek> changing lifetimes needs to be reviewed w.r.t. RFC 7772
[16:31:45] <Ole Trøan> This risks hosts being without address in case of ISP link down too
[16:31:54] <evyncke@cisco.com> 30 minute lifetime for PIO... oh man, this morning my router was down for 45 minutes.... I want to keep my local prefix during this time
[16:32:32] <evyncke@cisco.com> And do not say ULA to me ;)
[16:32:45] <Ole Trøan> ULA!
[16:32:51] <evyncke@cisco.com> Grrr !
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[16:35:48] <Ole Trøan> after 20 years in the IETF the words "next" has been ingrained in my brain as a NMI
[16:36:47] <evyncke@cisco.com> "NMI" ?
[16:37:40] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> Non-maskable Interrupt?
[16:38:06] <evyncke@cisco.com> Oups... shame on me... I was looking for a networking TLA
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[16:38:43] <behcet> I think Fernando should speed up
[16:38:55] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> VLC has an option of Play Speed :-)
[16:39:07] <ek> @ole: I just realized everyone is incentivized to +q before the queue is cut, and -q if they have nothing to ask
[16:39:29] <ek> lower barrier to entry than physically standing and walking over to a mic
[16:41:09] <Ole Trøan> @behcet: sped up
[16:43:26] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> I finally get to hear him...
[16:45:11] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> It's 45 here an dit still I can hear...
[16:46:44] <ek> 5 seconds doesn't cover lost packets
[16:46:55] <ek> here be dragons, I think
[16:47:00] <evyncke@cisco.com> You are reading in my mind :-)
[16:47:32] <behcet> @ole: thanks
[16:48:06] <ek> not implemented doesn't matter
[16:49:53] <evyncke@cisco.com> Good meeting indeed
[16:50:00] <Jen_aka_Furry> Ole, Bob: I'll submit -01 of my draft this week, so it will be ready for the WGLC
[16:50:24] <Alex Petrescu (CEA)> he said "2nd interim meeting might be scheduled, back in touch, webex is ok, wishes all be safe and well, very interesting times, we'll remember for a long time"
[16:50:25] behcet leaves the room
[16:50:32] <Philip Homburg> I think we should tolerate a loss of two RAs
[16:50:41] <evyncke@cisco.com> indeed
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[16:51:10] <sureshk@jabber.org> Nice meeting Ole and Bob!!
[16:51:16] <sureshk@jabber.org> See you all.
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[16:55:25] <Bob Hinden> Bye all, stay well
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