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[06:59:26] <Pascal Thubert> Hi
[06:59:34] <Pete St. Pierre> Hi Pascal
[06:59:43] <Pascal Thubert> :-D 
[07:00:24] <Pete St. Pierre> I'm horrible at getting people's names correct, so feel free to hop in at any time.
[07:01:01] <Pascal Thubert> Carsten doing agenda bashing
[07:01:06] <Pete St. Pierre> Carsten is open the meeting
[07:01:32] <Pete St. Pierre> Standard IPR disclosure
[07:02:05] <Pete St. Pierre> Milestone slide review
[07:02:39] <Pete St. Pierre> 2 critical Red areas - Security  &Architecture
[07:02:49] <Pete St. Pierre> agenda review (slide 4)
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[07:03:55] <Pete St. Pierre> Short update on 802.15.4e
[07:04:23] <Pascal Thubert> Rene Struik presnting
[07:04:25] <Pete St. Pierre> Rene Struik presenting 
[07:04:44] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide 1: Scope & purpose
[07:04:53] <Pascal Thubert> on 802.15.4e
[07:05:17] <Pete St. Pierre> slide 2
[07:06:00] <Pete St. Pierre> slide 3: relevant documents
[07:06:25] <Pete St. Pierre> next slide
[07:06:39] <Pete St. Pierre> proposed T4e baseline schedue
[07:06:45] <Pascal Thubert> all proposals hears and discussed
[07:06:58] <Pete St. Pierre> draft planned for ballot in November
[07:07:00] <Pascal Thubert> formal ballot nov onwards
[07:07:29] <Pascal Thubert> René's focus is overhead and security
[07:08:03] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: frame formats (1)
[07:08:15] <Pete St. Pierre> shows reduction in overhead(s)
[07:08:18] <Pascal Thubert> compress fields that can be reconstructed on the recipient, using security to check
[07:08:46] <Pascal Thubert> add secure ack with piggy backed payload like time correction (TSMP/ISA100)
[07:10:08] <Pete St. Pierre> 6lowpan based on 2003 spec -- maybe it's time to move to the updated specs.
[07:10:49] <Pete St. Pierre> carsten asking if people have things they are intested in seeing in 6lowpan from the 15.4e changes
[07:11:20] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM to Rene: is there anything we need to take on from 15.4e
[07:12:21] <Pascal Thubert> Dave Cueller: 15.4's mechanisms did not work well. There will be a more solid baseline
[07:12:37] <Pascal Thubert> on which we can meaningfully construct our own
[07:14:06] <Pascal Thubert> Dave:  15.4e and j will not change our specs but will change what we do because now we'll have a solid  MAC
[07:14:12] <Pete St. Pierre> Carsten got back to his question: is there anything from 15.4e that we must pick up
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[07:15:43] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM: How to tell between versions?
[07:15:52] <Pete St. Pierre> Rene: there's a version number
[07:16:15] <Pascal Thubert> in the Frame control
[07:16:46] <Pascal Thubert> Jonathan Hui: nothing impacts fundamentally, e is mostly compression (AFAIK)
[07:17:30] <Pascal Thubert> Kyoki: could impact bootstrap? provisionning?
[07:18:41] <Pascal Thubert> Ki Hyung
[07:19:03] <Pascal Thubert> scheduled MAC might impact ND?
[07:21:34] <Pete St. Pierre> Jonathan Hui presenting HC draft (-05)
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[07:22:00] <Pete St. Pierre> goal: improve upon what was in 4944.
[07:22:17] <Pete St. Pierre> specifically - compression of global addresses
[07:22:27] <Pete St. Pierre> slide 1: background
[07:23:31] <Pete St. Pierre> next slide: changes from -04
[07:23:32] <Pascal Thubert> closed a number of tikctes
[07:23:41] <Pascal Thubert> defined CID of 0
[07:23:47] <Pascal Thubert> prefix based mcast
[07:24:03] <Pete St. Pierre> jonathan reading down list of changes/tickets closed
[07:24:21] <Pete St. Pierre> (on slide)
[07:24:29] <Pascal Thubert> cleaner stateless stateful separation
[07:24:51] <Pascal Thubert> remove unspec address need to see with ND draft
[07:26:17] <Pascal Thubert> added extension headers including IP in IP tunnels
[07:26:48] <Pascal Thubert> useful for Mobile IP
[07:28:05] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: Next header encoding
[07:28:21] <Pete St. Pierre> Jonathan sumarized the format, with an example on the following slide
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[07:29:43] <Pete St. Pierre> next steps: 
[07:30:27] <Pete St. Pierre> JH summarizing small changes for -06 (enumerated on the slide)
[07:31:11] <Pete St. Pierre> For discussion: IPHC conflicts with the ESC dispatch.
[07:31:42] <Pete St. Pierre> suggestions: we don't allow the conflicting encoding or we change the ESC dispatch
[07:32:12] <Pete St. Pierre> draft seems pretty stable.  If you have issues, please comment soon.  
[07:32:26] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM commenting on slide 20
[07:32:36] <Pete St. Pierre> (next header encoding)
[07:33:00] <Pete St. Pierre> draft should clarify why the leading '1110' value
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[07:35:33] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM asking about the slection of hop limits (1, 64, 255) and how this affects PANs with both route over and mesh under
[07:35:49] <Pete St. Pierre> Jonathan commented that possibly we don't compress in those situations
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[07:37:13] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM - this is complex and maybe better taken to the list
[07:38:20] <Pete St. Pierre> Pascal addressed Geoff's questions (pascal, feel free to sumarize)
[07:39:32] <Pascal Thubert> Zach Shelby: not concerned with Geoff 's point
[07:39:35] <Pascal Thubert> ready for LC
[07:39:35] <Pete St. Pierre> Zach Shelby noted that he wasn't concerned about this and felt with the -06 changes, the draft is OK for last call.
[07:41:44] <Pete St. Pierre> HC not backward compatible with HC1 or 4944
[07:42:14] <Pete St. Pierre> geoffM: Jonathan to rev the draft and we'll send to LC
[07:42:38] <Pete St. Pierre> Erik Nordmark: should it make sense to revise the old RFC to make sure things are clear.
[07:43:06] <Pete St. Pierre> Carsten: there will be other things such as 15.4e that will cause changes and we should take that on as a work item
[07:43:15] <Pete St. Pierre> Zach Shelby presenting ND draft
[07:43:24] <Pete St. Pierre> rev -04
[07:43:50] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide: outline
[07:44:10] <Pete St. Pierre> End of ND slide deck has a primer for more info.
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[07:44:44] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide: 6lowpan ND background/goals
[07:45:11] <Pete St. Pierre> key: enabling DAD over entire lowpan
[07:45:18] <Pete St. Pierre> (MH, sleeping nodes, etc)
[07:45:31] <Pascal Thubert> less mem less code for ND in LoWPANs
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[07:45:54] <Pascal Thubert> agnostic to LL technology and mesh under/route over
[07:46:47] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: current status
[07:47:08] <Pete St. Pierre> 4 open issues, fine tuning and minor edits needed
[07:47:21] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide: changes from -02 to -03 (see slide for list)
[07:48:35] <Pete St. Pierre> for node implementors: simplified what needs to be implemented
[07:48:49] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: changes from -03 to -04 
[07:48:58] <Pete St. Pierre> (see slide for list)
[07:49:54] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: duplicate ID detection
[07:50:30] <Pete St. Pierre> NR message contains: owner ID, Nonce (32-bit) Transaction ID, address to register)
[07:50:33] <Pete St. Pierre> Nonce is on boot
[07:52:01] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide: NR message processing
[07:53:32] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide: fault tolerance
[07:53:56] <Pete St. Pierre> Edge router recovery & use of secondary reg for FT.
[07:54:39] <Pete St. Pierre> comments welcome on how to improve FT text
[07:54:46] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: adhoc lowpans
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[07:56:24] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: open issues
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[08:00:18] <Pete St. Pierre> SamitaC: is HC mandatory for using this?
[08:00:35] <Pete St. Pierre> Zach: No.  you can send full IPv6 frames, but it's inefficient
[08:01:03] <Pete St. Pierre> the draft tries not to make special cases 
[08:01:10] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: next steps
[08:01:15] <Pete St. Pierre> need WG feedback on CID
[08:01:24] <Pete St. Pierre> release -05 will be out soon.
[08:02:46] <Pascal Thubert> carsten:
[08:02:54] <Pascal Thubert> a month can be a useful lifetime
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[08:03:58] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM: whiteboard state:  what is the appropriate unit
[08:06:26] <Pete St. Pierre> Pascal: what we're doing here is ND for non-transitive links
[08:11:54] <Pete St. Pierre> Jonathan: still some discussion on how the context is distributed
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[08:19:13] <Pete St. Pierre> various discussion on CID
[08:19:30] <Pete St. Pierre> jonathanH: maybe the document needs more work on this area
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[08:19:52] <Pete St. Pierre> DavidCuller: reminder to keep it simple and get it done.  
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[08:21:07] <Pete St. Pierre> DavidC: if necessary let's not compress, call it done and move on
[08:21:19] <Pete St. Pierre> let's not get caught up for another year
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[08:22:29] <Pete St. Pierre> Carsten: lets continue the discussion on the mailing list, but stick to the timeline.
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[08:23:26] <Pete St. Pierre> carsten: we're 30 min behind schedule
[08:23:50] <Pete St. Pierre> Eunsook Kim: Desigh spaces preso
[08:24:05] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: Drafts status & next steps (see slide)
[08:24:37] <Pete St. Pierre> Carsten: does anyone think this isn't ready for LC?
[08:24:51] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM: we need positive comments too - not just silence.
[08:25:13] <Pete St. Pierre> EKim: Problem statement preso
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[08:25:22] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide: status &next steps
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[08:26:46] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM: Same Q as last preso - any objection to LC?
[08:27:10] <Pete St. Pierre> JPVasseur: JP does have some issues with the document.
[08:27:29] <Pete St. Pierre> concerns about the diagram in the doc.
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[08:27:43] <Pete St. Pierre> OTOH - there is a lot of good stuff in this document.
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[08:29:02] <Pete St. Pierre> EKim: the document is not about mesh under
[08:29:30] <Pete St. Pierre> EKim: we can remove the diagram if there is a feeling that it confuses the layering architecture
[08:30:00] <Pete St. Pierre> JP: Routing in the 6lowpan box is going to raise concerns with IAB
[08:30:38] <Pete St. Pierre> Discussion of what the diagram is intended to propose.
[08:30:50] <Pete St. Pierre> (ie. where does routing belong/live)
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[08:31:24] <Pete St. Pierre> Erik Nordmark: I don't see a problem with the diagram, other than possibly terminology.
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[08:38:06] <Pascal Thubert> Dae KIM
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[08:38:20] <Pascal Thubert> Routing is needed in any network
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[08:38:38] <Pascal Thubert> not confined to IP
[08:38:47] <Pascal Thubert> t's a generic term
[08:39:05] <Pascal Thubert> diagram says nothing more
[08:39:14] <Pascal Thubert> Ralph Dronms
[08:39:23] <Pascal Thubert> Drmos (sorry Ralph)
[08:39:26] <Pascal Thubert> Droms
[08:39:51] <Pascal Thubert> seems like the WG is not requiring a techno
[08:40:14] <Pascal Thubert> this is informational about how the techno works
[08:40:37] <Pascal Thubert> should be fine if things are worded this way
[08:40:44] <Pascal Thubert> design choice implications
[08:43:05] <Pete St. Pierre> Pascal presenting Fragment recovery draft
[08:43:18] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide: Need for fragment recovery
[08:44:11] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide: severity of the issue
[08:44:29] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide: Fragment recovery proposal
[08:44:55] <Pete St. Pierre> change: removed ECN handling (separate spec)
[08:45:02] <Pete St. Pierre> (next slide)
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[08:45:34] <Pete St. Pierre> if people object to the new compression scheme we can roll back to the last version.
[08:46:26] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: recovery fragment dispatch & header
[08:46:49] <Pete St. Pierre> encoding based on what was done in HC draft
[08:47:48] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: dispatch & header (2)
[08:47:54] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: other problems
[08:49:53] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: to be done next
[08:50:02] <Pete St. Pierre> Do we want to adopt this as a WG item?
[08:50:38] <Pete St. Pierre> Carsten: fragments are fundamentally ugly
[08:50:47] <Pete St. Pierre> we need it because 15.4 has limited packet sizes
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[08:51:41] <Pete St. Pierre> 4944 recommends using MAC acknowledgments
[08:52:09] <Pete St. Pierre> we have some basic mechanism for single hop acknowledgements
[08:53:06] <Pete St. Pierre> Carsten: so this is kind of a second safety net we can use where link layer ACK not sufficient
[08:53:34] <Pete St. Pierre> we can have a lot of discussions about where we want a second safety net and where we don't.
[08:53:47] <Pete St. Pierre> Pascal: there is new text in the draft that discusses this
[08:56:07] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM: 4944 is deployed and working
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[08:57:27] <Pete St. Pierre> DavidCuller: two implementations I'm familiar with things do work with 4944 and in some cases with TCP.
[08:58:12] <Pete St. Pierre> loss characteristic are bursty - if you got one frag, you're like to get the other.  If you lose one, you're likely to lose more than one.
[08:58:52] <Pete St. Pierre> Carsten: were you arguing for or against the proposal
[08:59:08] <Pete St. Pierre> DavidC: I'm against trying to make the hypotheical case perfect.
[08:59:43] <Pete St. Pierre> let's get the existing stuff out and done.  I'm against something that could keep us from getting done even longer.
[09:00:54] <Pete St. Pierre> DavidC: you can do retransmission at every hop and not need to do reassembly at every hop.
[09:01:11] <Pete St. Pierre> Pascal: but we can do this better with signaling
[09:01:46] <Pete St. Pierre> Carseten: summary: we do have interest, but we don't have concensus on what we want to do (deprecate 4944?)
[09:02:10] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM: is there a problem with an application sending non-recoverable fragments?
[09:02:46] <Pete St. Pierre> can I selectively turn on fragment recovery
[09:03:17] <Pete St. Pierre> Pascal: there is a cost (one additional message).  if the cost is mostly negligible, why not just leave it on anyway.
[09:03:38] <Pete St. Pierre> GeoffM/Carsten: we'll take it over to the mailing list
[09:04:13] <Pete St. Pierre> SNMP optimization: 
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[09:04:28] <Pete St. Pierre> I didn't get the presenter's name - anyone?
[09:04:43] <Pascal Thubert> Juergen Schoenwaelder
[09:04:46] <Pete St. Pierre> ty
[09:05:24] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: claimed benefits of IP Tech.
[09:05:43] <Pete St. Pierre> next slide: mangement requirements
[09:06:27] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: SNMP scare (why it shouldn't be used)
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[09:07:55] <Pascal Thubert> heavyweight security? 
[09:08:00] <Pascal Thubert> fuzzy terms
[09:08:15] <Pascal Thubert> actually flexible to plug security models 
[09:08:51] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: SNMPv3 deployment models
[09:09:09] <Pete St. Pierre> well defines models for different types of environments
[09:10:04] <Pete St. Pierre> SNMv3 is the 'official' version.  v1 and 2c are historic.
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[09:15:30] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: lightweight end-to-end
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[09:16:42] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: proxy model approach
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[09:18:38] <Pete St. Pierre> slide: sub-agent protocol
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[09:20:43] <Pete St. Pierre> sldie: minimum packet sizes
[09:20:58] <Pete St. Pierre> smallest legal SNMP message sizes
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[09:24:23] <Pete St. Pierre> Slide: recomendations
[09:31:32] <Pete St. Pierre> one final item: MIB
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[09:31:46] <Pete St. Pierre> slides are included. will not be a preso
[09:32:08] <Pete St. Pierre> 6lowapp (application protocols) "Bar BOF" in room 202 tonight 18:30pm
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